The forbidden Smiths

P

peacemaker

Inactive
I'm pretty new to this, but I've done quite a bit of studying. I've heard a lot of people saying that the old Smith & Wessons are always superior to the new ones. Is this true? Is it related to the infamous court case S&W was involved in?
 
"Infamous court case..."

:confused:

Which one?

You'll have to be a little more descriptive.

S&W has been involved in numerous court cases since its founding in the 1850s.
 
OUt of court

I don't know about court cases, but ( I think this is how it went) a little kid got ahold of a Smith pocket revolver and was shot, so they put the grip safety on the lemon squeezer revolver assuming a small child could not grip hard enough to defeat it. But that was a long time ago. That safety was also on the original centennial 38, which was the same gun or so, as the 640 concealed hammer gun. Note they excluded that feature on the reissue of the model.
 
I think you're talking about the HUD agreement, which was not the direct result of any "big" court case, and is dead.
Current changes in S&W are more the result of being bought by the Safe-T-Hammer Corporation (integral lock) and to reduce manufacturing expenses (MIM parts, two-piece barrels, changes in rifling and other dimensions, etc.).
Many people think the older guns are better built, many people think the new ones look just fine.
The outsides do look pretty nice on the new guns, but in specific areas that more knowlegeable shooters look at, the old ones are better overall, in my opinion.
You'll get other opinions.
We won't know how well the new guns hold up till they run for another 20-30 years & we have a genuine longterm basis for comparison.
Denis
 
Sure.
Chev trucks over Fords, but Dodges are OK.
Bad idea to install dark green carpet if you have a white cat.
Arizona's too hot in the summer.
Denis
 
I think the new Smiths are very well made guns, but I don't want the locking mechanism built into my guns, so I always buy lightly used Smiths which are older than about 1999 which is when the locks went in. And preferrably, I go for the models which were before the use of MIM as well. It's amazing how many used Smiths are out there which are still NIB or LNIB. And a whole bunch more that are in excellent condition. Of course it involves a bit more work to seek out fine older models than to just trot down to the local gun shop and buy or order a new one... but the result is worth the extra effort and you're almost certain to be able to sell the gun for as much or more down the road. Pre-lock, MIM-free Smiths in excellent condition will always be in demand and I think the demand will only increase as time goes on. Here's a sweet model 19-5 I recently found... it's about 20 years old and still nearly new. What a dream .357!

M19left_1088b.jpg


M19rf_1090e.jpg


I have a THIRTY year old Model 27 with 3.5" barrel being sent to me that I recently found... that is also like new! Amazing.
 
If you want a quick general opinion here's one;

The changes in S&W handguns are a result of manufacturing changes and a steady effort to remain competitive (make enough profit on the sale of firearms that the investors and owners get a good return on their ducats) coupled with advances in metallurgy and new manufacturing techniques. The demands of the market also have a role.

In general the guns of S&W made these days are stronger and more durable than the guns of 20 years ago and further back. Consumers demand stronger pieces these days as we shoot more than shooters of decades past (more disposable income for a broader number of people is one reason). Advances in metalworking and in metalurgy have made this possible, stainless steel, alloys, etc. In general accuracy of the arms is as good as always.

The older Smiths though, for many people, look and feel better. There was often hand fitting of the parts. A pinned and recessed gun, beautifully blued, was a sign of workmanship. You could see the brains and skill of the workers in the results (not just parts spit out of a CNC machine and droped into place by a guy who could be working anywhere on anything).The guns were carbon steel and wood. The triggers were often smoother and the carbon steel wore in more evenly than does stainless or the alloys. Some of this is a matter of taste and opinion.

So some folks say the older guns are better made and better looking but the newer pieces are more durable in general. There are always exceptions and allowances.

tipoc
 
I have alot of older Smiths and some new ones. I think the new guns are the best they have done in at least 30 years or more. The tolerances such as throat diameter are much tighter and more consistant. My new ones with MIM parts are smoother than most of my old ones out of the box. I do not like the lock but I can live with it. I carry a j frame with one every day. My only gun with a 2 piece barrel is my 500 mag and it is very accurate . Most of the complaints with the new ones are nostalgia. I am a shooter more than a looker and if it shoots I like it. the new ones shoot
 
My 1948 vintage Pre 17 K-22 shoots bullets all over the velocity scale. Anywhere from 700s to 900s. Ditto my ca mid 70s M17. My late 90s production M41 shoots them very consistently.

My NIB late 60s M27's action was gritty and heavy out of the box. Because the owner didn't shoot it! My NIB early 60s vintage flatlatched M36 had the heaviest god awful DA stroke you'll ever pull when I first got it. Again, lack of use. Smiths mellow with use. This is why old guns feel better. All my new Smiths are smooth. Because I shoot them alot. On Sunday morning, I'll bring three Smiths to the range and between them they will digest 500 rounds before lunch time. So when I kick the bucket and my guns get sold, folks will cycle it and say "old Smiths sure feel great!" :)
 
I like the older S&Ws and there is another reason for that preference. Not only do I like the workmanship but I think I get a better product as a better price. Maybe this is a function of being older but I flinch when I see the new retail prices. This doesn't automatically means all older Smiths are quality built because they have had some production ups and down through various owners. Maybe its because my first Smith was/is a model 17 bought in 1955. I still love the blued ones with the pinned barrels.
 
The older, the better. S&W is still knee deep in management problems having recently closing a plant out here and retreated back to where the Union Labor rules. Their QC is terrible and the only one I own I bought becuase of two reasons.1. John Taffin wanted me to "Buy a Gun for America" ( I bought three). 2. It was a 6 inch 586 in a Presention Case with Barry Goldwater's signature in gold on the barrel. It was sold to the first owner for $2500.00 to help the GOP raise money. I like .357's for Democrat elimination purposes so I thought it would serve me well if "W" lost. I am not a person who can live under those conditions again so George saved a lot of lives that day in November. It is a sweet gun built in 1992 and I will have Milt Morrison (Qualite' R&P) Tweak it up in Parker CO soon. I gave away all of my S&W tools along time ago when they rolled over for Slick Willie. His work is wonderful and I like the best.
 
peacemaker, I thought you were talking about anyone that still liked blued guns! The NEW S&W would like us all to think it's necessary to pay "Performance Center" prices to get our OLD favorites. They are wrong. I do pay more. JUST NOT TO THEM! Being short sighted, in the long run, didn't help Colt "new" sales. Oh well, history DOES repeat itself. It's not to late S&W. What do you think the NEW Colt/Smith, almost cult like following will be?? Mass produced shiny, light weight(over and over), new guns?? Yea right, that will be a long lasting love affair. Get real! Quick sales/profit, won't equate to long term profit. The new S&W SUCKS.
 
To each his own

:) That is what I like about freedom of choice.

Bought my first Smith in about 51. Last one in November. Have several new ones, love the frame mounted firing pins. Don't like the locks, but don't use them either.

No collectors, all are carried and shot, often. :D
 
For what its worth, if the SW1911 is any indication of their current quality control then S&W is doing something right cause thats a sweet piece. I have a down payment on a new 686, i can get over the internal lock, we'll see if it is a good as i hope. Seemed like a excellent revolver during checking it out, but we all know what the real test is...
 
I've got old and new Smiths. I like them all.
I prefer to not have a trigger lock and I prefer blued guns, but my 4" 629 just tipped 1200 rounds with nary a hitch. The best trigger job I know of is to fire 1,000 rounds through the thing.

I do like the older ones better, mainly because I like blued guns and I like N-frames and think a .357 N-frame would be nice (no, that Godawful ugly 627 doesn't count), but there's too many people believing the gun rag hacks that any gun that weighs more than 13 ounces is too heavy, so it won't happen. I'll just have to buy M27s when I can find them.
 
Colt is worse, they don't even make a DA revolver anymore, they don't really care about their Civvy buyers, and their last DA revolver was a flop.
 
When I compare my 1930 S&W Heavy Duty to my 1954 S&W heavy duty I see big differences in the fit and finish. Internally, the modern one is much less "nicely" done.

When I compare my 1939 Registered Magnum to my 1952 Pre-27 357 Magnum, you can really see the lack of polishing and smoothness in the action. It is very apparent when the 2 are side by side.

Now when I compare my 1939 Registered magnum to my 1989 610, it is a joke. The 610 if rough, there are tool marks, the side plate lines are easily seen, the grips are no where even closely fit as the 39 Registered's are.


Basically you can draw a linear line that is inversely related to time and this line is the downward spiral of quality of fit and finish.

Just my opinion based upon my guns.
 
Have a 686 and 66 with the lock and after firing many 100 rounds have had no problem ,most times forget it is there.I wish they would go back to blueing more guns,there is just something about a :) blued gun.Maybe that is why I keep buying the older S&W
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top