Running Gunfight
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Just saw it. Worth $3.00 if you are looking for a flick to rent some evening. MacNamara is it 85, VERY sharp. Good insight into a brilliant mind and a living piece of US history.
"The fog of war" docu....
- Thread starter Running Gunfight
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You ARE talking about Robert MacNamara aren't you?
The guy who tried to run the Viet Nam war like some CEO of a Fortune 500 company? I'm sure that opinions vary as to the relative brilliance of his mind and soundness of his vision. He is certainly a living piece of something and a sad reminder of a fatally flawed strategy.
The guy who tried to run the Viet Nam war like some CEO of a Fortune 500 company? I'm sure that opinions vary as to the relative brilliance of his mind and soundness of his vision. He is certainly a living piece of something and a sad reminder of a fatally flawed strategy.
Fred Hansen
New member
Exactly!
Try this little thought experiment: Imagine that you are an enemy of the United States. Then imagine that you get to choose to have as your opponent the "brilliant" McNamara :barf: (sorry, can't think of that piece of excrement without :barf:ing) or General Curtis LeMay -- McNamara served under General LeMay, and he is featured in the first part of the film.
I know who I would pick, and his initials are R.M.
Running Gunfight
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It is hard to argue against....
McNamara being brilliant at age 85 and being living US history. Had LBJ not been spoiling for war against the communists and had he followed McNamara's original advice, we would have been out of Vietnam before sustaining soooo many casualties. IMO, McNamara's plea and outline to Kennedy for an exit strategy showed great foresight.
Vietnam as seen even against the backdrop of the Cold War, can easily be considered a mistake. Of our two candidates, one served and spoke out against the war and one failed to serve. Had Bush felt strongly about the war, he would have served there.
As for who I will vote for, I am actually considering voting for Bush for reasons of my own that don't have anything to do with how Kerry looks holding a rifle or socio-cultural reasons like gay marriage or gun control.
McNamara being brilliant at age 85 and being living US history. Had LBJ not been spoiling for war against the communists and had he followed McNamara's original advice, we would have been out of Vietnam before sustaining soooo many casualties. IMO, McNamara's plea and outline to Kennedy for an exit strategy showed great foresight.
Vietnam as seen even against the backdrop of the Cold War, can easily be considered a mistake. Of our two candidates, one served and spoke out against the war and one failed to serve. Had Bush felt strongly about the war, he would have served there.
As for who I will vote for, I am actually considering voting for Bush for reasons of my own that don't have anything to do with how Kerry looks holding a rifle or socio-cultural reasons like gay marriage or gun control.
I've been reading a book about the dept. of ordnance that talks about McNamara and the M-16. Near as I can tell, the failures of the M-16 are due to the army's failure to follow McNamara's instructions and adopt the rifle without change. But they didn't - changing the powder, rifling and a host of other minor details.
Running a war like a CEO might have been fine, if the employees follow orders.
I have yet to rent this, but my brother also said it was an astounding film.
Running a war like a CEO might have been fine, if the employees follow orders.
I have yet to rent this, but my brother also said it was an astounding film.
Fred Hansen
New member
I find it quite easy to argue against McNamara.
As I said, he learned at the feet of a master of warfare i.e. General Curtiss LeMay. He then went on to ignore every lesson learned from that great man. Again, ask yourself, as an enemy of the United States, whom would you rather fight? Gen. LeMay, or the bean counter? Against whom would you not have a prayer of winning?
Of the American fighting men (and women) that he betrayed (that I know personally) they despise McNamara at a rate of 99-1 out of every 100. They rank him with Hanoi Jane, Jonh "Franchurian" sKerry, and the various other traitor rats from the '60s era. No offense, but I'll take their word over yours.
I also found it astounding that a committed marxist like Errol Morris could make a paean to his idol McNamara using the medium of film to thank McNamara for prolonging communism's grip on the world for an additional quarter century, and that so many people would take the bait. Astounded and astonished, and saddened and disgusted beyond words.
:barf:I guess I missed the pervasive communist undertones to "A Brief History of Time" and "Thin Blue Line".
I think I'll go ahead and watch the movie for myself, Fred. But if you want to send me a copy of your conspiracy theory newsletter, I'll take a look at that, too.
I don't see what the big deal is. McNamara, right or wrong, is an important historical figure. Watching a film about him doesn't make you a traitor anymore than watching the 1938 Olympics makes you a Nazi.
I think I'll go ahead and watch the movie for myself, Fred. But if you want to send me a copy of your conspiracy theory newsletter, I'll take a look at that, too.
I don't see what the big deal is. McNamara, right or wrong, is an important historical figure. Watching a film about him doesn't make you a traitor anymore than watching the 1938 Olympics makes you a Nazi.
Fred Hansen
New member
Who said there were any?
Show me where I suggested it did.
Some of my favorite quotations from the Viet Nam war went ssomething like this:
Gen Curtis LeMay- "We will bomb them (N Vietnam) into the stone age."
Gen Giap - "We were already in the stone age!"
I will also not forget the M16's built by McNamara's buddies at GM. Every M16 I shot that was marked Hydra Matic Corp was a worthless and inaccurate POS. Wasn't McN the jackhole who decided against chroming the chambers? Wasn't he the one who decided to use surplus WW2 mortar powder instead of the rifle powder originally specified by stoner? And who sent the guns to the Marines without any cleaning kits?
But what the hell, it was the stupid dumb GI conscripts who screwed the war up, not the brilliant people like McNamara and Lyndon Johnson, right!
I hope McNamara spends eternity in Hell facing the Grunts he screwed over.
Gen Curtis LeMay- "We will bomb them (N Vietnam) into the stone age."
Gen Giap - "We were already in the stone age!"
I will also not forget the M16's built by McNamara's buddies at GM. Every M16 I shot that was marked Hydra Matic Corp was a worthless and inaccurate POS. Wasn't McN the jackhole who decided against chroming the chambers? Wasn't he the one who decided to use surplus WW2 mortar powder instead of the rifle powder originally specified by stoner? And who sent the guns to the Marines without any cleaning kits?
But what the hell, it was the stupid dumb GI conscripts who screwed the war up, not the brilliant people like McNamara and Lyndon Johnson, right!
I hope McNamara spends eternity in Hell facing the Grunts he screwed over.
No, he didn't do any of those things (with the exception of the chromed chamber, which was unnecessary). His orders were to produce the rifle exactly as Stoner's was, and to refer to Stoner with any changes. The Army Ordnance chief by the name of Col. Stadler is largely to blame for unnecessary and debilitating changes that he made without consulting anyone, including Stoner.
The Senate did a huge investigation of this called the Ichord hearings. Look it up. The Army was squarely and soundly blamed after testimony from people like Eugene Stoner. It appears in many ways that it was just about purposeful sabotage on the part of the Ordnance board to support the M-14 and an outmoded rifle doctrine. The result was the closing of Springfield Armory and the dissolution or the Ordnance board.
This seems to illustrate that everyone is a little quick to blame McNamara for everything. I'm going to keep an open mind about him, since it does not seem like everyone with a strong opinion necessarily has all the facts.
Let me comments on war in general. War is unpredictable and that is the underline truth to war. Every time the USA fights a war we roll the dice. Through history empires and states that are even greater then the USA has fallen to smaller and weaker nations. Every time we fight a war there is a chance that it might destroy us. What Vietnam teaches us is that we must pick our fights carefully and not get into conflicts that will destroy or weaken us. Unlike the Soviet that was destroy by Afghanistan, we escape from Vietnam in a weaker state but in a state that the USA was able to recover from.
More revisionist history. McNamara was in charge, what happened on his watch is his responsibility.
As to the hearings Re the M16, it is the normal deal to find some junior officer or official to place the blame on. Ultimately the problems should be placed squarely at the feet of the man in charge, McNamara.
As to the hearings Re the M16, it is the normal deal to find some junior officer or official to place the blame on. Ultimately the problems should be placed squarely at the feet of the man in charge, McNamara.
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Stadler didn't follow orders. Period.
I recall a Navy Aircraft carrier (Coral Sea?) that hit another navy vessel. The OOD had the option of calling the Skipper when the other ship was first sited, but chose not to. Did the Skipper get relieved? No.
My brother's submarine was run aground due to a navigation error. The Skipper was on the bridge when the navigator made his mistake. Did the Skipper get relieved? Yes.
Command responsibility is a reality, but isn't an absolute if the commanding officer's orders are not followed or he/she is bypassed.
Did McNamara change the AR-15s rifling twist? Propellent? Did he authorize increased cyclic rates for acceptance at Colt? Did he call for a bolt closure device? No to all. His orders were simple and specific - no changes unless necessary, and all changes cleared with Eugene Stoner. Neither order was followed, which makes the joint Ordnance committee in violation of a direct order from a superior; nor did they inform McNamara of any changes. Considering the loss life that insued, those service men were lucky to not be court-martialed.
And remember, McNamara had a boss, too.
I recall a Navy Aircraft carrier (Coral Sea?) that hit another navy vessel. The OOD had the option of calling the Skipper when the other ship was first sited, but chose not to. Did the Skipper get relieved? No.
My brother's submarine was run aground due to a navigation error. The Skipper was on the bridge when the navigator made his mistake. Did the Skipper get relieved? Yes.
Command responsibility is a reality, but isn't an absolute if the commanding officer's orders are not followed or he/she is bypassed.
Did McNamara change the AR-15s rifling twist? Propellent? Did he authorize increased cyclic rates for acceptance at Colt? Did he call for a bolt closure device? No to all. His orders were simple and specific - no changes unless necessary, and all changes cleared with Eugene Stoner. Neither order was followed, which makes the joint Ordnance committee in violation of a direct order from a superior; nor did they inform McNamara of any changes. Considering the loss life that insued, those service men were lucky to not be court-martialed.
And remember, McNamara had a boss, too.
Well....I am an old grunt, know little about them tubs navy guys float around on. But I do remember the Exxon Valdez incident. The captain was nowhere near the bridge and the third mate (IIRC) didn't call him, or wake him up untill the ship went aground. The mate made all the mistakes, but the captain was put on trial. It was his ship!
McNamara made decisions that cost lives and the war in Viet Nam. The M16 worked fine when it was in the hands of the special forces and in early battles ("We were soldiers" is one example).
But McNamara's method of running the war like a fortune 500 company eventually led to decisions being made that had disastrous results. The M16 fiasco was a direct result of this type of thinking. Like the american auto manufacturers who found ways to make parts cheaper untill the autos were junk, McNamara found ways to cut corners on costs untill american soldiers were dying. Trying to put the direct blame on some LTC is the usual answer. But McNamaras policies and leadership were the prime reason for the failure. And no one will ever convince me that he had no knowledge of what was going on.
I do know the Army and how it works. Any ordinance guy who found a way to save money would be honking his horn all over the place, most certainly to a secretary of defense who put out directives to save money, the way fortune 500 companies always do. Ultimately the Secretary of Defense would have to approve the changes.
Had the war turned out differently McNamara would be the great hero.
As my first Company commander told me once. If things go well I (Meaning him) get the credit, if they don't Lt you get the blame. He was jokingly trying to explain to me how the military works. He was a good CO and covered my butt once, at his expense.
Sorry but McNamara, no matter how the writers and lefties paint him as a good guy, still is the boogey man in my opinion. And LBJ is the real villain.
Maybe I am just too stubborn to think otherwise.
McNamara made decisions that cost lives and the war in Viet Nam. The M16 worked fine when it was in the hands of the special forces and in early battles ("We were soldiers" is one example).
But McNamara's method of running the war like a fortune 500 company eventually led to decisions being made that had disastrous results. The M16 fiasco was a direct result of this type of thinking. Like the american auto manufacturers who found ways to make parts cheaper untill the autos were junk, McNamara found ways to cut corners on costs untill american soldiers were dying. Trying to put the direct blame on some LTC is the usual answer. But McNamaras policies and leadership were the prime reason for the failure. And no one will ever convince me that he had no knowledge of what was going on.
I do know the Army and how it works. Any ordinance guy who found a way to save money would be honking his horn all over the place, most certainly to a secretary of defense who put out directives to save money, the way fortune 500 companies always do. Ultimately the Secretary of Defense would have to approve the changes.
Had the war turned out differently McNamara would be the great hero.
As my first Company commander told me once. If things go well I (Meaning him) get the credit, if they don't Lt you get the blame. He was jokingly trying to explain to me how the military works. He was a good CO and covered my butt once, at his expense.
Sorry but McNamara, no matter how the writers and lefties paint him as a good guy, still is the boogey man in my opinion. And LBJ is the real villain.
Maybe I am just too stubborn to think otherwise.
The book is "Misfire:The History of How America's Small Arms Have Failed Our Military" by William H. Hallahan. It is riddled with references, including official military correspondance. It might be nice to take a look at something to balance what you've heard.
Those AR15s that the Green Berets had were the one's McNamara ordered. He certainly didn't request the gun be revised for arctic stability. Why would he?
The Valdez captain was drunk when he should have been on the bridge - not having the #2 guy drive.
Those AR15s that the Green Berets had were the one's McNamara ordered. He certainly didn't request the gun be revised for arctic stability. Why would he?
The Valdez captain was drunk when he should have been on the bridge - not having the #2 guy drive.
Elmo Blatch
Inactive
I saw Fog of War. It was a fine documentary. And, yes, it was a real documentary, unlike the schlock that someone with the initials of MM makes.
Errol Morris is one of my favorite filmmakers. He may be left-leaning, but so what. Most good artists are lefties. The Thin Blue Line is a masterpiece and probably the most compelling and fascinating documentary ever made.
What's the deal with worshipping Curtis LeMay? This guy was a psychopath, wasn't he? Didn't he want to pre-emptively nuke the Soviet Union during the Cold War. If he had his way, how the hell would this world have turned out?
Errol Morris is one of my favorite filmmakers. He may be left-leaning, but so what. Most good artists are lefties. The Thin Blue Line is a masterpiece and probably the most compelling and fascinating documentary ever made.
What's the deal with worshipping Curtis LeMay? This guy was a psychopath, wasn't he? Didn't he want to pre-emptively nuke the Soviet Union during the Cold War. If he had his way, how the hell would this world have turned out?
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