The eye of a craftsman...

BigG

New member
I've said it before, but ;) ...

The 1911 produced for and by the Government or the COLT Commercial Government Model 45 ACP Pistols were and still are the finest combat automatic pistol designs made to date. This is despite 89 years of development time where designers have racked their brains (I suppose) to come up with something NEW or BETTER. Ain't happened yet. I don't say somebody won't come up with something someday, just that it ain't happened yet.

If we consider the development of the various automatic pistol actions, it becomes rapidly apparent that all types of actions, from tipping barrel, turning barrel, turning bolt, dropping block, prop-up, toggle, etc., etc., were designed prior to the end of the nineteenth century. The only one that survived to any extent was the JMB tipping barrel design.

But of course there were innovations, you say? Yes, I know Walther came out with double action, that's one innovation. I consider it of dubious value but others may like having to change their grip to fire successive shots (not to mention cutting your knuckles! LOL). Yes, Walther and Beretta use dropping block actions. Check out a C96 Mauser to see the same idea before 1900. But Beretta uses a turning barrel! Check out many Eastern European designs from the first decade of the 20th Century, as well as the American Savage, to see this idea well before Pietro "invented" it. Desert Eagle uses a turning bolt! Hah! ever seen a Mars pistol? Makes a Desert Eagle look like a cap gun, and dates back before the 20th Century, IIRC.

The polymer frame is the one innovation I can think of that really is a milestone, but that's my opinion.

But I digress; the real reason is the combination of the do-it-yourself bent of Americans (an admirable quality in it's place), the champagne taste but beer pocket book of many Americans, the woeful disrespect of the average American for fine craftsmanship and hand work, and, frankly, the credulity of the average American consumer.

The original COLT 45 Automatic Pistols were hand fitted by skilled labor of long employ. Springfield Armory (the REAL one) could not sucessfully produce the Model 1911 based on the blueprint drawings they worked up until they redrew it based on the actual COLT pistol being produced by COLT. This required the eye of a craftsman, not a computer geek or blueprint engineer. These skilled laborers would be equivalent to a Baer, Wilson, Clark, Bilby, Heinie, etc. You would pay much more for a COLT Gov't Model if it were hand fitted by the likes of them! But that was the average skilled employee of Colt
in those days, and Colt still employs some handfitting in their 45s!

Because people always want to make a buck, some entrepreneur copyrights a name, such as
Springfield Armory or 1911A1!! The uninformed masses take it for the REAL Gum't Armory, which closed under LBJ. Instant recognition and credibility! Buy a Springfield M1A or 1911A1! They think they got the REAL THING. This exploits the credulity which the public so often exhibits.

Some of the other clones I'll give the credit that they do go by their own name, not hide behind a phony historical association. But then, we have the kitchen table -- monkey see, monkey do -- penchant of Americans. Hey, I can do that! Unfortunately, I believe that is exactly the attitude behind the clone makers, for a large part. Access to CNC machines does not replace a craftsman's eye and understanding. John Moses Browning could make more with a bastard file and a bar of steel than most manufacturing concerns can make with CNC machinery, IMHO, unfortunately. Apparently, so can Norinco, from what I understand, to the CNC users shame!

Finally, the notion that if it looks pretty, it's quality, seems to pervade many people's thinking today. This appeals to the common tendency of us all to want something for nothing. Hence, the shiny,stainless, Loaded Elite Bazoonga Models we are confronted with these days! The uninformed fail to recognize a gussied up POS is still a POS!

I know, I've been all over the place with this, but think it's important that you know I have a basis for liking COLT 45 Automatic Pistols, not just an unthinking bias!

:)

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Be mentally deliberate but muscularly fast. Aim for just above the belt buckle Wyatt Earp
"It is error alone that needs government support; truth can stand by itself." Tom Jefferson
If you have to shoot a man, shoot him in the guts, it may not kill him... sometimes they die slow, but it'll paralyze his brain and arm and the fight is all but over Wild Bill Hickok
Remember: When you attempt to rationalize two inconsistent positions, you risk drowning as your own sewage backs up.
45 ACP: Give 'em a new navel! BigG




[This message has been edited by BigG (edited January 12, 2000).]
 
I agree with your statement, but who makes an entry-level or mid-priced 1911-style pistol and uses these talented craftsmen(craftspeople?) we both long for? I couldn't figure it out, so I bought a Kimber Gold Match and hoped the tight-tolerance machinery would take the minimum wage workers out of the equation. It has worked so far - love the pistol.
BTW - do you know if Colt made a nickle-plated Series 70 GM with adjustable sights?
 
BigG--after reading your post, I've only got one question. Do you like 1911s? I couldn't tell...

Sic semper tyrannis

freedomlover
 
Oh no, not this again :(

I agree, nothing can replace craftsmanship and the old Colts (especially revolvers) were beautiful examples of craftsmanship. But I think you overstate the case a bit.
 
I do agree with BigG in that quality should not be comprimised in a firearm. However, I do feel that he's being a bit linear in his approach.

I've owned Colts that were fine shooters and I've owned others that were raving pieces of junk. The worst was an enhanced ulitimate stainless model. That gun was the biggest piece of **** that I've ever owned. One of the best 1911s that I've had was a plain jane 1991A1. That thing was the best shooter, and also the most reliable of the 1911s I've owned. A few months ago I traded it off in a weak moment and have been kicking myself ever since. This supports BigGs point that the bells and whistles aren't what matter. They may look nice and snazy but they don't make the gun what it is.

On the other hand, I've owned Springfields and others (soon to own a Kimber) that have been much better performers than the Colts and some that have been worse (from those same manufacturers). The point is this, if we were living in the hand assembled world of 50-60 years ago I'd agree whole heartedly with BigG. However, in todays world of mass produced products that are made on computerized machinery that kind of attention to detail just doesn't exist (even with Colt).

The best that you can do is to buy your pistol from a reputable dealer and make sure that it's made by a reputable manufacturer (IMHO Colt, Springfield and Kimber all fall into this catagory) so that you have recourse if the gun fails. Shoot enough rounds through it to make sure that it's reliable and sound. That's the best you can do.

They all turn out lemons from time to time. All of them.
 
Hummm. I've got a problem with this. First, not even JMB himself thought that highly of the 1911 design, he believed the Hi-Power to be a superior design. Now in a precision pistol, the 1911 shines, but today I think there are vastly superior COMBAT pistols out there, like the Glock, SIG, and HK.

When it comes to workmanship/craftsmanship, the Belgian Brownings are every bit as nice as the Colts, and the Luger is superior to both (now this is in craftsmanship, not design).

FWIW, IMHO, yadda yadda...
BB
 
Does LittleG ever spew anything out of his piehole other than, "My Colt Gummint model is the dern bestest shootin' iron ever!" or something similar to that?

Sorry to be so rude, I guess I'm just PMSing.
 
As big of a fan of the 1911 as I am I have to agree with BB. "Better" I don't know about, but there are pistols that are just as good. BB mentions the Hi-Power which is a good example. I used to own a HP in .40 S&W, a better pistol you will not find. Mine was reliable, accurate and beautifully made. However, it was too small for my hands and was a bit uncomfortable to shoot because of this. That was the *only* reason I traded it for another 1911. It was a beautiful piece of work.
 
BigG, I'm with you on this one. I went down to the range today, and before putting a couple hundred rounds through my Kimber, compared it side by side with the well worn Colt 1991a they have on hand. Don't get me wrong, I am very happy with my gun, just not its price. What was immediately apparent was the better balance and feel of the Colt.

Any car guys here ? Ever see those complete engine kits ? This is how I break it down. Buying a Kimber is like buying one of those factory 350 ci's that are guaranteed to dyno at 300 hp. Thats just swell. The problem is that the engine isn't fitted like you would do it yourself. Buying a Colt is like getting a bone stock 350 similar to how they made them in the 60's. It's put together well, and YOU can decide just how you want the engine too perform. The Colt/stock 350 as we often find out is built for the long haul as opposed to the repro's that use blocks with thin cylinder walls and cut corners in odd places. Yes, Kimber has a great frame, and tight tolerances, but on closer inspection (hammer, trigger, slide stop, barrel bushing) certain parts and materials used aren't up to par.
My .02 cents, thanks people.
 
Muscles, I disbelieve that there is any appreciable difference in balance or feel between a full size Kimber and a full size Colt. The only differences in exterior design and weight distribution between them is that the Kimber has a straight mainspring housing and the Colt has an arched one, and the Kimber has a full length guide rod. If those two things bother you so much, it is not much work to have both installed on YOUR Kimber...
 
Rik,

True, there are some things I will have "fixed", other differences are the Beavertail on the Colt and the grip is thicker on the Kimber. Check the fronstrap of the Colt and the Kimber, I swear they are different (Colt being more rounded). I just tried out a 10 round mag in my gun and it makes a world of difference. I promise not to bitch anytime soon :) .

[This message has been edited by MusclesMcGee (edited January 14, 2000).]
 
Whoa.
Hold up a second.
I gots 3 Springfield 1911s of various flavors.
Not ONE of them is a POS.
Several years ago - I had a Springfield 1911. It was not a POS either.
I know several other shooters who have Springfield 1911s. Not one of them is a POS.
I have YET to handle a POS from Springfield!

Now, you can have your beef with CNC Machining. It is different from a Gun crafted with a touch of the Master's Hand.
BUT - What if you put a Master on the CNC Machines? Then you can get a gun that is made quickly and easily (Read that as IN YOUR PRICE RANGE)and is made to high quality specs. You get the best of Both.
What is so wrong about that?
Waxing poetic about Colt is fine. I remember shooting some old Colts - they were not all that. In fact, any of my Mass Produced POS's as they are called - out shoots the Colts and has a better fit and finish as well.
So There!
:p

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"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." - Sigmund Freud
 
CNC vs Handcrafting? Is this as silly as it sounds? That's like comparing stocks made by hand vs stocks made by Blanchart (sp?) lathe. Sure the handmade ones are lovingly crafted (hardy har har), but every one is a little bit different and not interchangable. If you want good examples of handcrafted guns, check out the recent issue of Soldier of Fortune and their trek to the gun "factories" of north west Pakistan.

I operate wire EDM and next to CNC lathes and whatnot. There's no way to get the same precision and speed (ie lower prices) by doing it by "hand" ("hand" because you still need a mill/lathe/grinder/etc).
 
Yup, you're right. A master on a CNC would be awesome. Too bad the run of the mill operators seem to be dorks! :D

Second, there is no way you can convince me metal injection molding is as good as machined. I think pistols could be a helluva lot better if the people building them were shooters instead of minimum wage dorks! :D Rant over!

------------------
Be mentally deliberate but muscularly fast. Aim for just above the belt buckle Wyatt Earp
"It is error alone that needs government support; truth can stand by itself." Tom Jefferson
If you have to shoot a man, shoot him in the guts, it may not kill him... sometimes they die slow, but it'll paralyze his brain and arm and the fight is all but over Wild Bill Hickok
Remember: When you attempt to rationalize two inconsistent positions, you risk drowning as your own sewage backs up.
45 ACP: Give 'em a new navel! BigG
 
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