The Dark Days

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SPEMack618

New member
Due to the clamor over the proposed M855 ban, I dug pretty deep into the LEOPA of 1985 in an effort to best explain it a Fraternity brother who is dating one of the aide's of my senator.

That led me down the rabbit hole of various firearms regulations.

I'm a younger guy (born in '88) and came of age during in the 90s, but my view of the gun culture at the time was limited. And I had always known that the AWB was going to sunset in 2004 and every thing would be good again.

However, what I'm curious about, is what was is it like to be a gun owner pre-Heller and MacDonald?
 
SPEMack618 said:
However, what I'm curious about, is what was is it like to be a gun owner pre-Heller and MacDonald?
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Heller and McDonald weren't that long ago. Unless you live in Washington, DC, or Chicago, there hasn't been much change since (or due to) those decisions. Yes, Wisconsin now has concealed carry. On the other hand, NY and Connecticut enacted their draconian new post-Sandy Hook laws after Heller and McDonald.

We are a nation of 50 states and a federal enclave. Each has its own laws and regulations. That was true before Heller and McDonald and it is still true after Heller and McDonald.
 
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Just like it is now. Waiting for the next cheapjack politician to buy votes by attacking our civil rights, the next billionaire to fund an initiative based on lies, or the next venal judge to put his personal biases first and justice last.
 
Texas used to have strict handgun laws...

The Killeen Luby's massacre changed things... But it took some time...

Texas is viewed as a gunslinging state, but in reality a very low percentage of the population carries... Numbers are on the rise I suspect...

Washington state, where live now (1.5 years) is openly gun nut lol... People open carry at the pizza place.... Concealed carry license is simple to get
 
However, what I'm curious about, is what was is it like to be a gun owner pre-Heller and MacDonald?
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When I was growing up, most Dept stores had 50 gallon barrels full of assorted military rifles priced from $15-$30, and you could buy guns at Sears, Western Auto, and most hardware stores.

You could also order them from catalogs and have them delivered through the mail straight to your home.

Many of the trucks in the parking lot at the high schools had gun racks with rifles and shotguns, and no one cared

Things have changed since then
 
Yes I remember rifles were well accepted, even more than now... Like I said, handguns were different....

But I bought a rifle and shotgun at the mall and carried thrm out..

I remember spending my school lunch money on bricks of .22s
 
Snyper said:
When I was growing up, most Dept stores had 50 gallon barrels full of assorted military rifles priced from $15-$30, and you could buy guns at Sears, Western Auto, and most hardware stores.

You could also order them from catalogs and have them delivered through the mail straight to your home.
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The OP's frame of reference was Heller and McDonald. The days of buying firearms through the mail and at hardware stores ended with the Gun Control Act of 1968, not with Heller and McDonald.
 
My perspective on guns from 1980 - 2005.

Pre-1980, revolvers were preferred over semi-autos, because in most guns capacity wasn't that much different and reliability was still perceived as a factor.

Pre-86, very few people cared much about military weapons and machine guns. The $200 stamp tax was actually a deterrent to owning machine guns.

Before Miami Vice and Scarface, no one cared about the M10, UZI or machine pistols. This show and several movies made modern hi-cap 9mm "Assault Pistols" popular.

1988 was the first time we saw panic buying of semi-auto AK's due to the import ban. I'd say this was also about the time when the AR started to become more popular.

The late '80's were defined by the Wonder Nines and the proliferation of the Glock 17.

1993 - '96 was the second time we saw panic buying of "Assault Weapons"

By 2000, we started to see some Glock-Knock-offs and from that point forward it seemed like every gun maker wanted to make it's on polymer version of the Glock.

No, we did not expect the AW ban to EVER expire. No one I knew talked in terms of the AW expiring, and generally there was speculation that the ban would be tightened and enlarged. When the AW ban actually expired, I looked upon it as a gift from George W. Bush....I was shocked that it was actually permitted to expire.

Concealed carry became more prevalent around 2005 or so and this started the revolution on a new wave of small carry guns coming to market.

Around 2010 or so, there was a resurgence in popularity of the 1911. Every manufacturer wanted to have its own 1911 and people would pay big money to get a finely tuned on.


This "time line" is not meant to be historically precise. It's my perspective of different benchmarks in time where gun trends seemed to shift.
 
When the AW ban actually expired, I looked upon it as a gift from George W. Bush....I was shocked that it was actually permitted to expire.
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The AWB was designed to expire after ten years. The movers and shakers behind the AWB did not have the votes required to enact a permanent AWB, so they compromised. The AWB passed the US house by a vote of 216-214.
 
Some things have changed, some have not. When I was in high school in the late 1950's, members of the school's rifle team carried their 22LR target rifles with them on public transportation without any problems, and this was in New York City. When I bought my first store-bought handgun in the mid-1960's in Texas, I walked into a sporting goods store at the mall in El Paso, saw a little Baby Browning in the display case, took out my checkbook and walked out with the gun and a box of ammo. To the best of my recollection I didn't fill out any paperwork and I may or may not have had to show the clerk my driver's license.

What hasn't changed is that some parts of the country have a culture very accepting of firearms and their use and other parts of the country that are anti-gun remain so, and in some cases have gotten even more anti over the last 20 or 30 years (such as NY, MA, MD and probably some others). And much of our progress in recent years can be credited to the Supreme Court recognizing the 2nd Amendment as an individual rather than collective right. That legal theory could change if we lose a single conservative vote on the Court. The anti-gun liberals like Ginsburg, Kagen, Sotomayer will vote ideologically regardless of what the Constitution actually says so our "rights" are always precarious.
 
There will always be Antigun people plotting ways to restrict guns...

There will always be progun people vocal enough about it to slow that down....

The constitutionalist movement is still gaining steam....

The most dangerous to gun rights, however, are those that do not have a dog in the fight. Those either won't vote, or they'll check a box that makes them feel good.
 
I think one reasons guns sell better now is because people are more affluent. Guns were too expensive when I was little. My first new handgun cost about $98 and I had a lot of trouble paying for it. It was a Browning Hi-Power. A box of 9mm ammunition was about $5.00.
 
I was on staff at American Rifleman magazine in the early 1990s when things looked like they were REALLY starting to turn against us.

Brady, the "Assault Weapons Ban," and a bunch of import restrictions and new "findings" by BATF, a hostile Congress and a very hostile White House, new anti-gun laws being proposed virtually every day...

It did not feel like a good time to be a gun owner.

Worse, the anti-gun groups were fluorishing, and were crowing about how the gun lobby's back was broken, and it would never recover, and how they were ushering in a newer, safer, and soon to be gun free America...

It took a while, but things started to turn around, slowly, and really beginning at the state level. More and more states began to pass shall issue conceal firearms laws, and people began to wake up.

Opinion polls that had been supporting gun banners started to turn around. Membership in the gun grabber groups began to wane, and NRA's membership levels (as well as for other groups) began to jump.

In 1994 or 1995 Virginia was debating shall issue to replace its highly politicized "up to the sheriff's discretion, and usually only for big donors to his re-election campaign" issue system.

Jim Brady came to Richmond to tell legislators that more guns equals more crime, and how there would be rivers of blood flowing in the streets from random fatal encounters sparked by conceal carriers.

The state legislature gave him a standing ovation...

And soon afterwards (IIRC within a couple of hours of his speaking) the Virginia House voted overwhelmingly to adopt shall issue.

Virginia was but one of a whole series of dominos that began to fall regarding concealed carry.

And the rivers of blood and mass shootings by CCW holders that are routinely predicted? We all know how those turned out...

Even better, support for the gun grabbing organizations declined precipitiously. Handgun Control Inc. came close to bankruptcy, IIRC, changed its name, and continues to live on the razor's edge of insolvency.

The Million Mom's March dwindled to a Few Moms March. People here reported going to MMM meetings that were heavily advertised in their local areas to find 10 or fewer people turning out.

Things have gotten better for firearms owners, but we're not out of the woods yet.

The gun grabbers are intent on their meaningless goals.
 
Perceptions are a funny beast.
Each average gun owner has his or her own perception of the climate. Each person has their own world view, based on their own point in life, experience and geographical location.

Ideally, each person should have a 360 degree view all around them that is not obstructed. This is not so, veils get put up by different groups, sometimes intentionally - sometimes not... each individual gets different parts of the circle blocked, partially obstructed, slightly blurred or even enhanced. Each person will complete the puzzle with the pieces they have left over.

A person in the middle of and involved in the legal and political aspects of gun rights may see a brighter future than the average joe gun enthusiast.

This is a very interesting topic... Because each person has different perceptions about the issue...

I am seeing handgun rights improving, but rifles under the thumb....

Now, recent midterm elections revealed blatant influence of wealthy entities on more local laws... Not just firearms... There were a few other measures that were important to me that outside philanthropist and wealthy individuals flooded with money and got things to swing their way

I foresee this happening more on gun laws... A national restriction will be tough to get through... I see losses on local and state levels as a possibility... We can also have gains... Many states are stepping up and defending the constitution as well.... But if you can slip legislation through on gun-lovin washington state, it can happen anywhere
 
I was born in 1961, with the generation who thought gun control would save society, their children. These views were pretty much the majoity at that time except in a few states. Most gun control policies were based on television shows and movies which always made them out to be evil with a few exceptions. Most shows made all guns out to be evil in civilian hands, and only good when used by police offiicers and US soldiers. Public view began to shift more conservative in the 80's, and more acceptance of guns along with it. Then pres. Reagan and Pope John Paul were both shot by attempted assasins, and Sarah Brady launched her blame the guns campaign. Since guns were being more accepted Brady's anti-gun group needed an evil scapegoat and they picked out "assault weapons" becaus ethey looked evil, and many people didn't know the difference between a semi-auto and a machine gun. They also launched their campaign against "cop killer billets" which is the law being argued today concenring 5.56.

What has been the greatest factor in today's better acceptance? Alternative sources for news! At that time every news outlet was staunchly anti-gun, and reported accordingly. The only place you could find stories about armed citizens was in the NRA member magazines. One of the main reasons why the millennial generation views gun ownership more favorably is that very few ever watched TV network news, while the newest generation of antis is much smaller, and are nuttier than ever. Yesterday's anti's had more influence because they seemed to a little more reasonable to most people than today's antis banning gun shaped pop tarts, GI Joe dolls, or pictures of armed military parents, and Hello Kitty bubble blowing guns.

The internet and pro-gun news sources have crushed the monopoly of anti-gun propoganda media.
 
If you only talk to or listen to people who have the same opinion and outlook as you, you're perception of the what other people think is going to be a little skewed. Gun control policies based on television? Don't think so. Gun control laws were passed because people got killed. You're free to believe all those school shootings, the Kennedy assignation, and so on were faked to advance the gun control agenda if you like.
 
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The OP's frame of reference was Heller and McDonald. The days of buying firearms through the mail and at hardware stores ended with the Gun Control Act of 1968, not with Heller and McDonald.
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Actually he said "Pre" Heller and Mc Donald

Quote:
However, what I'm curious about, is what was is it like to be a gun owner pre-Heller and MacDonald?
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What I said pre-dates those cases
 
Gun control policies based on television? Don't think so. Gun control laws were passed because people got killed.
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I have to disagree with this statement. In the 1970's do you remember what gun they wanted to ban? It was the "Saturday Night Special". Was there ever a gun made called "Saturday Night Special"? No. It was a term drudged up from a racist era in American History to describe guns that were the only guns Blacks could allegedly afford to buy. They were also the gun of choice for bad guys on TV cop shows from about 1968 (post westerns) through the mid '70's. You might ask yourself - what color were those bad guys portrayed in cop/robber type tv shows during this era? This attempted ban was a product of racism combined with TV fiction.

Then the gun bans turned toward Mac 10's and other "Assault Pistols" because of TV shows where the doped-up bad guys high on cocaine fired off rounds in full-auto mode. They banned all open bolt guns because of this, even though it is more difficult to convert one to full-auto than an AR15. These "Miami Vice" type shows were also the reason for the '86 machine gun ban. No body gave a crap about machine guns until Scarface, high on cocaine, spent 2 hours of screen time blowing people away with various machine guns; same goes for Miami Vice. Miami Vice ran for five seasons on NBC from 1984 to 1989. Notice how that coincides with the Machine Gun Ban and the Import Ban.

Then the antis turned their attention to banning the Chinese semi-auto AK's in the '88 import ban. A lot of other foreign made semi-autos got caught up in this ban, but it was mainly targeted toward the cheap $350 Norinco and Polytech AK's. This was a result of all of the Viet Nam movies that were coming out at that time popularizing AK's. More folks wanted to buy them because of TV/Movies and the Antis saw them as evil for the same reasons. This carried through the AW ban of '96. See Full Metal Jacket, 1987; Hamburger Hill, 1987; Platoon 1986; Hanoi Hilton 1987.

You're free to believe all those school shootings, the Kennedy assignation, and so on were faked to advance the gun control agenda if you like.
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BTW, the Kennedy Assassination involved an Italian Carcano M1891 rifle - no attempt was ever made to attempt to ban this style rifle.
 
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The weird thing about gun control is in it's beginnings, most people aren't aware that most of the early attempts at gun control were designed to keep guns out of the hands of certain demographics....

I looked into origins of gun restrictions a year or two ago and read some enlightening articles on the subject, surprisingly published by some well known media outlets
 
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