The Canadian border pitfall again...

U

Uncle Billy

New member
This topic has been discussed here before, so maybe repeating it again isn't worthwhile. But at least twice a week someone from outside NY with no criminal intent runs afoul of New York gun laws. Here's the latest:

• ARREST: A man from Montana was arrested Wednesday morning after trying to bring a gun across a U.S. bridge and into Canada. Robert C. Thornberry, 64, attempted to secure his Browning 9-mm firearm with a New York State Court Officer after being told by custom officials he could not bring it across the border. A background check showed Thornberry didn’t have a valid New York pistol permit. He was charged with fourth-degree criminal possession of a weapon.

The usual scenario goes like this: Someone from outside NY (trucker, RV tourists, etc.) enters NY from an adjacent state with a gun aboard. When they get to Canada Customs, usually they are asked if they have a firearm or other weapon. If they say yes, and they don't have the prearranged Canadian paperwork that allows them to possess a gun in Canada (for any gun to be legal in Canada, a permit has to be applied for and granted in advance of crossing the border), they are turned around and sent back to NY. Or if they are sent to a secondary inspection (more than just answering questions and showing ID's to the person in the booth- the vehicle is gone through pretty thoroughly and personal stuff is examined) and a gun is turned up, they are sent back as well.

The trouble begins when they get to US Customs, because possessing a weapon in NY has to be done in compliance with NY law. If the gun is a handgun (almost universally forbidden in Canada), in order to be legal they must have a NY handgun permit, which is more difficult and involved to get than any other state. Without such a permit, they can be charged with criminal possession of a weapon.

So the bottom line is this:

If you come to NY headed for Canada, to stay out of trouble, don't bring a handgun if you don't have a NY license for one (and you won't get into Canada anyway).

The only way to get past NY gun laws, if US Customs find you in possession of a handgun, is if you are headed to Canada for a competition (not hunting), the handgun isn't too short barreled, and you have the requisite paperwork from Canada that proves that is your intent, information available here:

http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/cfp-pcaf/fs-fd/visit-visite-eng.htm

... and you have the handgun secured in a way that meets the requirements of the Firearm Owners' Protection Act of 1986 (unloaded, in a locked box or in the trunk, ammo separate, etc.)., and it's legal for you to have a handgun in the place you came from.

Then, if you're turned around at Canada Customs for some reason other than your gun and you arrive back at US Customs, you will have met the "Safe Passage" provisions of the FOPA- it's legal for you to have one at both ends of your trip and you secured it in a manner in compliance with the FOPA.

In short, if the Glock or PPK or Detective Special or Beretta 21A or whatever is your carry piece is just under the seat or in the glove box, or in your pocket and the Canadians find it and send you back to NY, criminal charges await: http://www.newyorkcriminallawyerblog.com/2009/09/criminal_possession_of_a_weapo.html
 
Stay out of both----Canada and New York!!!

I'd like to visit the NE but cant figure out how to do it safely and legally so I just stay home.
 
I'm a bit confused... aside from the method of the handgun being discovered, most of this seems to lie with NYS law prohibiting posession of a handgun w/o NYS concealed carry permit.

FWIW, I would never consider bringing a firearm across an international border w/o first very carefully checking the legality of doing so...
 
rattlehead: said:
I'm a bit confused... aside from the method of the handgun being discovered, most of this seems to lie with NYS law prohibiting posession of a handgun w/o NYS concealed carry permit.
Click to expand...

That's correct, it does. You can transport a handgun through New York State that isn't licensed to you there if you comply with the federal Firearm Owners' Protection Act of 1986- the gun is in a locked box or the trunk, unloaded and the ammo locked up, you don't stop in NY except to eat and get gas, and... it's legal for you to have the gun where you began your trip and where you're going with the gun. Most folks from other states, where it's legal for them to CC, pay no attention to the hard time we NYers have, how sticky the laws here are, and that if they come here with a handgun, the laws in NY will apply to them even though they are just passing through unless the provisions of the FOPA apply.

If you aren't aware of NY's laws and Canadian laws, and where you're from is a lot more lax about handguns, you could easily stumble into a big problem. If it's okay in the state you're from to CC a handgun and/or have one stashed in your vehicle, and you don't understand that such liberality isn't at all what happens in Canada or NY (which has no reciprocity with any other state that I'm aware of when it comes to a CCW permit), and you blithely go on a vacation to fish for walleyes in Lake Nipissing with the gun under the seat, and they find that out one way or another at Canada customs, your trouble begins. You won't be let into Canada because you can't have a handgun there so they turn you around, which sends you back to US Customs as someone trying to enter the US. They'll take a good look at you and find out you have a handgun, and it isn't licensed in NY. It's illegal to have a handgun in NY unless you have a handgun license in NY. You were refused entry into Canada because of the gun, which means it wasn't legal where you were going to have a handgun. Thus the FOPA "safe passage" provisions don't apply to you. That leaves you with possession of an unlicensed handgun in NY and no legal protection. That's 4th Degree criminal possession of a firearm, which is what happened to the person from Montana in the news article I quoted, and happens all the time at the border here. You might be able to beat this even though you've violated the letter of the law, but it will cost you, and will preempt your fishing trip, and generally ruin your day.

So leave the handgun home (and any other guns as well, unless you're going hunting in Canada and have applied for and received the paperwork from the RCMP (Royal Canadian Mounted Police, the Mounties) and have a non-resident hunting license from the province you're going to) if you're going to Canada from anywhere, especially from NY which will put your butt in jail if you mess this up.

I know, it's complicated, but it happens all the time here on the border. I'm damn tired of seeing decent people end up in serious criminal trouble simply because they didn't know the legal quagmire they were heading into. That's why I started this thread- trying to save people like me from being harassed and arrested for doing nothing that hurts anyone.
 
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That's correct, it does. You can transport a handgun through New York State that isn't licensed to you there if you comply with the Firearm Owners' Protection Act of 1986- the gun is in a locked box or the trunk, unloaded and the ammo locked up, you don't stop in NY except to eat and get gas, and... it's legal for you to have the gun where you began your trip and where you're going with the gun.
Click to expand...

Ahhh ok... I don't usually travel straight through NY, so I had paid much attention to that provision, just assumed that I had to have a NY CCW (which, for everything I would consider doing, is true...)


The rest of your post is spot on - I've lived in both, and neither NY nor Canada are places where you want to be caught off-guard in terms of firearms law.

(the real kicker in all that is that as far as I know, NYS has no non-resident CCW, and as you pointed out, no reciprocity on any other state license... hence if you get shot down on safe passage, there's really no safety net for you)
 
Rattlehead, you are correct- NYS does not have reciprocity with any other state, and does not grant non resident CCW permits.

Long story short: don't bring a handgun into NYS unless you are exactly complying with the 1986 FOPA.
 
I hate to say it, but if you are caught in that situation (turned back from the Canadian border), it will be much cheaper to just toss it off the bridge into the river.
 
Tossing it off the bridge is VERY, VERY good advice!
Take it from someone that knows. Even if it is a $2500 pistol it will save you tons of grief and money.

P.S. stay out of the tunnels.
 
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