The Bear Facts...

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flathead253

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Ok, hello everyone. I joined this forum because it looks to be one of the best, and not much rudeness & nonsense, or regulated fair & balanced?
I also, joined for this my 1st post or thread, actually…yes another "Bear" thread, but not just any…I hope this could be the one to END bear threads?
Why?
Well com'on do you have to ask why? A few are fine, however, on this forum alone, just searching "Bears" in title, I count 4 pages worth & 89 different threads, many all saying the same thing, same arguments, pet "theories" by armchair bear-charge experts, with all their ballistic data, pet firearms, calibers, loads, etc.,etc..
Then there are the experts, or at least "Pros" , guides, Pro Hunters…after that, experienced hunters residing in Griz/Brown country like AK., MT., WY., and ID.
Perhaps further down the chain are the residents of such areas having to often or occasionally deal with Polar, Grizzly/Brown bears.

The "problem" with ALL these discussions, however entertaining, is that NOTHING ever gets really solved, no solid empirical conclusion!
And how could there be?
Every situation is different.

✓ Making the distinction right from the start "Charge-Defense", not bear hunting.
✓ Different bears, with different personalities/attitudes/state-of-mind...
✓ Different hunters/hikers with different levels of awareness & safety precautions…
✓ Different logistics relative to optimal food sources...
✓ Different distance from which "charge" begins...
✓ Different terrain...
✓ Different weather & ground conditions...
✓ Different firearms…
✓ Pet ballistics "theories" by those never having a bear DLP or head-on charge experience…
✓ Same firearms with different ammo/bullets...
✓ Same "type" firearms in differing calibers...
✓ In the hands of different shooters with varying ability, with <=> hours logged on weapon, and varying composure & nerve under Xtreme duress…
✓ Where do you put your precious "one" (maybe two?) shot(s), head/try for brain, back/spine or shoulder/chest (can you even see those?)…
✓ Do you try and shut-it-down instantly with that "CNS shot" vs. break him down mechanically with a shoulder / hip shot, if target is presented, unlikely on frontal charge…
✓ Can you even shoulder-aim-shoot (after working the guns safety) in time or just point & shoot anywhere...
✓ Different philosophies on at what distance constitutes DLP action, which can make or break the case for Rifle-Shotgun-Handgun...
✓ Different real-life experiences by those who have been charged / mauled & their particular "subjective" scenario, which take in account many points listed above...
✓ Which therefore then, based on their own "subjective" outcome, formulates their theories based on a sample data "pool" of one, two, a few more incidents…really?

Now there are a few "Truths" and factoids most can agree on, especially those that have "been there".

◆A charge usually is the result caused by surprising the bear.
◆Bears are stealthy & very, very fast.
◆A bonafide aggressive charge with ill intent, usually happens quickly, from very close range, and little time to react.
◆You are lucky to shoulder or unholster firearm (bear-spray) and even luckier to get off an "aimed shot", or any shot, let alone a follow-up.
◆If you're "lucky" or to lesser degree skilled shot results in optimum shot placement thereby shutting-down bear(CNS) great, if not, hope to "turn" it or slow it down for the kill shot(s)
◆Your caliber/bullet must have enough penetration, energy, to affect an adrenaline pumped bear, "turn" it, bowl it over, break it down momentarily or shut-it-down instantly (CNS-shot)
◆Unless shot is a CNS shot…or bear "turns", you are going to be mauled / killed before bear knows it is dead, regardless of firearm/caliber/bullets.


So in light of ALL the variables…
…which is indeed problematic to finding a definitive defense, "one-size-fits-all", there really is only 3 scenarios regardless of firearm/caliber/bullet design/shot placement;

1. CNS shot, bear comes to a kidding stop, DEAD! ( Lucky or very,very good at snap-shooting accurately a quick bobbing moving target, under extreme duress!)
2. Any good "HIT" resulting in turning, slowing bear down for follow-up KILL, apparently unlikely, given distance, speed, reaction-time & state of emerged bear.
3. You get mauled and/or killed.

It would seem then, for that "one only" shot from a bolt, lever, pump, revolver...it MUST be a CNS "shutdown"?
Good luck with a spinal shot on a fast moving bear, if even acquirable?
Head/Brain shot...
If so, then ANY caliber/bullet design with sufficient energy & penetration to break thru the skull, which is not extremely thick...would get it done.
Could be a 5.56/.223 with hot load & good bullet, hard-cast slug, HC or FMJ bullet from Rifle or HG, ONE SHOT into the brain or else?

ALSO;

Why are the semi- auto type rifles or especially shotguns, that can fire 8 rounds in less than 2 seconds, not suggested more often?
It would seem that a "well placed" shot when charged close & fast, is just a "wing and a prayer", no time to aim, working bolt, lever and pump actions, still too slow for follow-up, and getting as much lead on target as fast as you can point & pull, would be the best hope when distance closed is measured in a couple a few seconds...why not these very fast shooting SG's or Semi-auto Rifles be it BAR's, Benelli's, M1A1's or Light AR's and the like?

Remember, we ar talking DEFENSE-CLOSE-FAST...
1 or 2 seconds to react, safety off, gun aimed or pointed, FIRE !

Or...

BEST DEFENSE ?
AVOID getting charged by this apex predator, as BEST humanely possible.
( and that may be the subject of yet another "BEAR" thread, lol )
 
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I doubt that this thread will find any definitive answers either, but here are my somewhat random thoughts.

I still think bear spray is the best front line defense for true bear attacks. Even with a fatal wound from a large caliber rifle a bear can do a lot of damage in the last few seconds of it's life. Bear spray will probably do more to encourage a bear to go somewhere else, as well as teach them to avoid humans.

Human interaction is how bear lose their fear of humans. I believe it is best for all of us to do our best to make any bear we see in the wild to be uncomfortable around humans. Never allow one to get any food and learn that humans are easy pickings. A bear can easily take an unarmed human, but they don't know that. No predator will risk serious injury for food unless they feel they have no other choice. When one learns how easy it can be to get food from humans it is dangerous. Even if I do everything right, I have no control over the guy who went down the trail 3 days or 3 hours ahead of me.

When I do carry a gun I prefer a rifle. I think it should be of manageable recoil, be compact and easy to carry and offer lots of penetration. Lots of velocity isn't needed, but heavy for caliber bullets work best. Reliability trumps everything, so that rules out semi's. They also tend to be much heavier than bolt rifles in the larger calibers. Slugs have shown to be far less effective than rifle calibers 30-06 or larger and recoil far more. Buckshot is a very poor performer. Not a fan of shotguns for bear. I find a shorter barreled bolt rifle to be far more reliable, accurate and compact than any other type including levers. With large calibers recoil recovery is the limiting factor for repeat shots and levers and bolt rifles are about equal for this. A heavy loaded 30-06 is more than enough for all but the 1000+ lb bear found along the Alaskan coast. A 375 is a better choice there, with 30-06 the minimum.

Not a big fan of the huge 460 and 500 revolvers. I find a compact rifle easier to carry and even more effective. They are a good choice for someone handgun hunting, not for defense. A standard 357 revolver loaded hot or 10mm pistol is probably fine for all but the bigger bear. A 41, 44, or hot 45 Colt is fine too, but probably aren't going to be a bit more effective. It is penetration you need, and a lot of luck to hit a vital spot. With the right bullets they all penetrate about the same.

My preference is the Glock in 10mm. With 16 rounds of 200 gr bullets at 1300 fps I'll get about the same penetration as the others in a lighter more compact gun. I have 16 chances to get in a lucky hit vs 6. I realize I won't likely get off more than 2-3 shots before smokey starts chewing on me, but I don't plan to stopping shooting till I'm dead or the gun is empty even if my leg is being chewed on.

Could be a 5.56/.223 with hot load & good bullet, hard-cast slug, HC or FMJ bullet from Rifle or HG, ONE SHOT into the brain or else?
Click to expand...

A 5.56 and a lucky shot might work, but aiming for the brain is a very low probability shot, especially frontal. A bear skull is sloped like a tank's armor. It is easy for even large caliber bullets to deflect off when hitting at that angle. Even a shot into the eye socket would miss the brain. Notice the pencil in the photo. On a frontal shot the only way to hit the brain is through the nose.

 
Originally posted by flathead253

on this forum alone, just searching "Bears" in title, I count 4 pages worth & 89 different threads, many all saying the same thing, same arguments

I hope this could be the one to END bear threads?
Click to expand...


Me thinks you should have read the other 89 first.

BTW....welcome to the forum.
 
It would seem then, for that "one only" shot from a bolt, lever, pump, revolver...it MUST be a CNS "shutdown"?
Good luck with a spinal shot on a fast moving bear, if even acquirable?
Head/Brain shot...
If so, then ANY caliber/bullet design with sufficient energy & penetration to break thru the skull, which is not extremely thick...would get it done.
Could be a 5.56/.223 with hot load & good bullet, hard-cast slug, HC or FMJ bullet from Rifle or HG, ONE SHOT into the brain or else?
Click to expand...

The problem with head shots on a charging bear is that the head isn't station in at least 2 of 3 axes and may be moving in all three. Beyond that, the skull is hidden underneath a considerable amount of hair. So a lot of what you see isn't skull.

A bear's skull is not particularly thick, despite the claims often made about head shots failing. They are rounded, not so much sloped like a tank as noted by jmr40, but then again, so are just about every other animal's skull. There just aren't too many cubist-skulled animals around.

However, it isn't just a matter of hitting the skull that makes it a CNS shot. There is a LOT of skull to hit and it not be a CNS hit. You can shoot through an eye and have it exit the side of the head without it actually penetrating the brain case, as nicely shown by jmr40's pretty pink pencil example.

Of course, he says that the only way to hit the brain from the front is through the nose. That is only sort of correct. That fully assumes that the nose is pointing at you while the bear charges, which usually it isn't. If you watch vids of charges, the nose is often at a downward angle during much of the charge, and so the frontals and parietals (forehead and top of head) become much more viable than a nose shot.

Not all bears charge straight. If so, then you have a more lateral view of the head.

Of course, with the head bouncing up and down and all the motion, chances are you aren't really going to be aiming at a particular spot on the head, but the head area, not knowing what is or is not going to result in a skull-impacting shot that will sufficiently damage the brain. Note, that you do not have to have a penetrating brain shot to have a shot that damages the brain, but a penetrating brain shot is the best way to get the desired result.

No, this won't be the last or definitive thread, LOL.
 
This is what you do. I read about a guy on a canoe trip in the Arctic who didn't like guns, but his friends convinced him to carry a shotgun. One night he forget the shotgun in the canoe. He woke up in the night to the sound of something outside of his tent, unzipped the tent door for a look, and found himself face to face with a grizzly. He zipped the tent door back up in a hurry and lived to write about it.

Me, I prefer a twelve gauge shotgun loaded with No. 1 Buck. What happens with a face shot at point blank range is not theory.

Choice of weapons suitable for bear country will always fascinate people. Even people who will never see a bear.
 
"Me thinks you should have read the other 89 first"

I did...sorta, skimmed...nothing much new, as in other forums.
I guess there are so many theories in common, pet strategies, what ifs...
...it all just gets repeated.

I am fascinated by it..as obvioulsy are others, even if we say we are sick of these...fear, primal fear... of a predator that as land mammels go, of which we humans share simalarities with, this one is the apex, at least here in North America...
...we can only stand up agianst it on it's turf, with weapons, and have half a chance.
Pretty awesome.

While your out there stalking an animal you're gonna ambush from 100-500 yds.,( hunting?) something may be stalking you.
Kinda some poetic justice there.
The thing that makes DG hunting, really HUNTING, the hunted has a chance and may up hunting you!
I like that.

Anyway, what ALL those threads share in common, what most agreed on, it if you let yourself get into this situation, or just by being in the wrong place at wrong time...
...face a close-up charge, varies degrees or mix of nerve, skill & luck will determine the outcome, odds being with the BEAR.

Still, why no semi-auto, they are unbelievably reliable, maybe more so than issues with mechanical actions, eg., short stroking a pump,
lever gun jams from recoil, bolt action jams all caused by trying to work the action under stress.

That new Benelli Vinci Tactical was tested in S. America recently, with no failures in 85,000 rounds fired. 4 Brenneke B.M. in 2 seconds ???
BAR is super reliable, the newer Benelli R1 Rifles are looking that way too.
The R1 or BAR in .338WIN mag. with respective recoil mitigation...I dunno
3 rapid .338's to the head & neck area, could be tough to argue with?

What's better... a bolt gun & one you're done or 3 in the same time frame from a heavy caliber, semi-auto Rifle.

"all good things come to an end"...
...except Bear threads:D

BTW, I'll spend a lot of time out in the Flathead Valley area & Glacier Park...
...maybe never, but especially hunting...odds go up, with my kinda luck, I'll be in that low statistic that meets Mr. Ursus arctos horribilis:eek:
 
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About Time!

Welcome to The Firing Line Flathead253.

I’ve got mixed emotions about your first thread here. On the one hand it sure would be nice to put that pesky bear problem to rest once and for all. I mean you’re right, every few weeks someone asks ‘what gun for bears?’ There’s even youtube videos on the subject, like this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGHKkAvBWUE

We settle it once and for all, right here, right now and my goodness, people will abandon all other gun forums and flock here in awe at our knowledge and wisdom.

It will make this forum much more crowded but on the other hand we won’t have nearly as much to talk about without one of our perennials favorites. I mean with the bear question settled it’ll just be caliber wars, ‘what gun for snakes’, (you weren’t going to take on snakes next were you?) and ‘guns in space’….

(hmmmm.... haven’t had a good ‘guns in space’ thread in a long time…do guns work in space???...does Rem Oil work in zero gee??? Guess you wouldn’t need to wear hearing protection when shooting in outer space now would you?)

Oh well, I guess all things change and if (well of course I mean 'when' not 'if' and I guess 'when' is now) the bear question is settled we’ll all get along ok or move over to the coin collecting thread.
 
Still, why no semi-auto, they are unbelievably reliable, maybe more so than issues with mechanical actions, eg., short stroking a pump,
lever gun jams from recoil, bolt action jams all caused by trying to work the action under stress.
Click to expand...

Because they are not unbelievably reliable and clearing semi-auto malfunctions is often much more difficult and time consuming than problems with bolt, lever, and pump guns.

Bolt, lever, and pump guns can be much easier to maintain than semi-autos, a big plus in the back country.
 
I have regular interactions with NH's version of eastern black bears. Never needed a firearm. Only needed bear spray once and that was simply to encourage a big guy to move on a little faster. Look 'em right in the eye and explain in a loud voice with appropriate body language that you are higher on the food chain than they are. Really, it works, even at 3AM in the glow of your porch light. Ben Killham up in norther NH is the national expert on black bear behavior. Very interesting to listen to and has written a couple of good books on the topic.

The biggest problem we have here is dumb humans who feed the bears and otherwise get them habituated to human contact. Then some tourist or refugee from the city panics and we have a dead bear, often with an orphan cub or two. Its a people problem not a bear problem.

Respect the bears and their behavior and you don't need to carry a cannon. Most of the time if you make sure that they hear or see you before you see them they will fade into the woods and you will never know they are there. The rest of the time its almost always about food you have and they want.

Around here there is a bear for every square mile and a half or so. Its not hard to get along with them.

Best of luck,

Wes
 
a good black bear load is one where you load a slow moving fast expanding bullet.
like maybe use a .308 or 30-06 and load a sierra pro hunter down to 2,400 fps
this gives you bullet size and expandtion.
a deer load just expands to fast for a bear and a elk load would go right through (save maybe a 1,200 lb kodiak island bear) a bear with minimal wound chanel.if an elk runs 50 yds and dies that no problem but a bear running 50 yds before it dies could kill you too.

a great brown bear load could be a .338 win mag with a fast expanding bullet but loaded down to 23,2,400 fps,you get size power and lots of expandtion
 
Very funny ( DaleA ).
Sorry for a post like that right out of the box...
...just could not stand it anymore, never seen a topic anywhere more beaten to death than this, without really solving anything.

Bottom line, most agree, get charged by a Grizzly / Brown form 20 yds. or less,
without out some luck or the Hand-of-God, you are toast...don't care how good a shot you think you are?
Unless you're running around the woods, Commando-Swat style, gun shouldered, safety off, trigger finger ready:rolleyes:
 
i suspect the bear would recomend a 12ga 3 and 1/2 shotgun

with honey instead of lead inside the wad.

but seriously this is not a hard debate

for alaskan costal brown bear in thick brush i would call a .300 win. mag an absolute minimum,i would go with a 30-378 and a .338 would be good too

for common grizzly bear, in experienced hands a 25-06 would be a minimum but a 7mm mag would work better.

massachusetts has an interesting law on black bear: there minimum bore dia. is .23 yes .23

being that no 23 caliber rifles exist to my knowledge why not say .243 but i guess .23 rules out .223' and 22-250's

Vermont has no minimum bore dia. on bear but they have a .257 minimum dia. on moose though.and no bore dia. on deer either
 
flathead253 said:
never seen a topic anywhere more beaten to death than this, without really solving anything.
Click to expand...

You really should look up "9mm vs .40 S&W" or "9mm vs .45 ACP" or ".40 S&W vs .45 ACP" if you want an example of something being beaten to death without solving anything. Bear threads don't even come close.
 
Bottom line, most agree, get charged by a Grizzly / Brown form 20 yds. or less,
without out some luck or the Hand-of-God, you are toast...don't care how good a shot you think you are?
Click to expand...

You keep saying 'charged.' Being charged isn't a problem. In fact, most of the time it isn't dangerous, just scary, but you don't know the difference until it is over. Either the bear stops, changes course, or is attacking you.

No, getting charged isn't the problem. It is the actual attack with the slashing, biting, mauling, ripping, standing on your chest issues that is the problem.

You mentioned "bonafide" charge early. You don't know if it is this until it is over, LOL.
 
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