The Art of preparing, estimating, calculating of a marksman

S

Silent Shadow

New member
All right.

Take a scoped rifle and give it to someone who has never shot it. Place a bus at a 1000 yards and tell that person to shoot it. They probably would not be able to hit it no matter how many times he tried.

Now tell a marksman to shoot a 20 inch target at that same distance, the marksman will have a range card ready, use some technicq of range estimation, some tecnique of wind estimation, check if the temperature might affect the precision, same with humidity, the spin of the bullet and whether the bullet goes subsonic before hitting it. After some time, he would shoot one shot, and hit the 20 inch target.

Now. I understand mil-dots are used to estimate range. I understand "rangefinders" are used to find range. I understand that marksmen have pre-made range cards and formulas and techniques to estimate all the factors that will affect the trajectory of the bullet.

So you could say, preparation, measurement, estimation and calculation decide whether the bullet will find it's target. That means that the skill of a marksman comes not from his ability to shoot (as with un-scoped rifles where you just aim and shoot, and that's the ability of shooting, that's my guess) but his abilty to measure, estimate, calculate and adjust the scope in order to make the shot.

Now, would someone enlighten me on the methods of estimation and calculation and adjustment?

as I said, mil-dots and rangefinders come to my mind. How about for wind?

thanx

Silent Shadow
 
Long range rifle shooting is the thinking mans game. Very little hand eye coordination is needed unlike clay games, which would be most like an art. A fired rifle bullet will travel a set path. Bullet drop (range) and deflection (wind) are a known, given a specific load, a set distance and wind speed direction. Judging range can be done by mil-dot, laser or experience. Wind can only be learned. wind speed scale Plus wind can change directions and speeds at different points along the bullets flight path.

Math then plays a major role in your success or failure. An example, take a .308 with a 168hpbt match load at 2600 fps. Zeroed at 200 yds it would be 2" high at 100 yds, 8 1/2" low at 300 and 24 1/4" low at 400 yards. If your scope had 1 MOA adjustments you would add 3 clicks up for 300 (1 click = 1 "@ 100 yds, 1 click = 3" @ 300 yds) 3 clicks would be 9" of adjustment at 300 yards. Then for 400 yds, you would add another 3 clicks. (1 click = 4" at 400 yds. 24" of drop divided by 4" per click= 6 clicks up from your 200 yd zero).

Wind speed once figured out would be corrected for in the same way. With the above load in a 10 mph wind at a 90 degree angle to the bullets path would be, 3/4" left/right at 100, 3 1/4"@200, 7"@300 and 13"@400. You would make the same adjustments for wind as you did range. 1 click = 1 MOA times the range equals bullet movement. 100 yds would be 1 click, 200 1/2 more (1 1/2 total) 300 1/2 more (2 total) and 400 another 1 (3 total).

These figures are not exact, but will give you an idea of what you need to do to get hits at range. It also shows why 1/2 or 1/4 MOA adjustments are put on riflescopes. Rifle shooting more than any other shooting sport is a learned game, IMHO.
 
All the range card and wind estimation tools do is tell you where the bullet will theoretically strike. Once you know where it will strike it is completely up to the shooter to put the bullet there. So physical skill plays a MAJOR role in long range shooting. Therefore its not all just calculation, you need both skills. So you're telling me that a physicist could outshoot me just because he can calculate the exact spot a bullet will strike? Think that if he pulls the trigger and flinches it off 1 minute of angle and what that will equate to @ 1000 yards: 10". Shooting isn't something that is dependent on calculation or skill, but calculation AND skill

Dan
 
As for range estimation, there are several methods.
1.Estimate the range halfway to the target, which is obviously shorter and guessing is easier, then double it
2.Picture one-hundred yard increments all the way to the target
3. Use an arial map if possible or satellite photo
4.Keep in mind that many qualities of objects make them seem closer or farther away.
Things that look closer than they are- things uphill from you, things with a solid outline (building), things with alot of contrast w/ their background, objects with a flat featureless ground in between you and them
Look farther than they are- downhill, with irregular border or little contrast, across terrain that has trees,shrubs, other objects

Windage-
First you have to estimate wind strength and differing winds downrange- one method is to feel the wind on the face, or you can drop a blade of grass from shoulder height and point w/ arm at where it hits the ground, then divide the angle of the arm and the body by four=wind in mph
Another method is to use the scope- you look w/ the scope slightly out of focus and use the angles of the mirages present
Big waves=slow, little waves=fast
no wind or wind in face or on back=no angle
3-5 mph=45 deg.
5-8=67 deg
8-12mph=90 deg
The effect of wind direction can be calculated using a clock system
winds from 3 or 9 o'clock will have full value, those from 1,5,7, and 11 o'clock are half value, those from 12 and 6 are no value
When speed and value are determined, the scope must be adjusted- one way (US Marines) is to multiply range in hundreds of yards by wind velocity in mph, divided by 15- this gives number of clicks to make on turret

Increased outside temps raise point of impact, and vice versa

Leading moving targets take practice, but the book I have says a target moving at 3 mph at 90 deg to shooter at 300m needs twenty four inches of lead; divide that by two for a target moving at 45 deg angle to shooter

I should also add that precision shooting at long range takes enormous self control, and that breathing control, concentration, trigger pressure, and even pulse control come into play. Mere shooting ability with iron sights is quite different than shooting scoped rifles at extreme range, because the distance amplifies the bad habits of the shooter. It takes lots of practice to be able to hit a target at 1000 yards, even for good shots. Snipers in the bush have to be able to block out heat, bugs, exhaustion, rain, enemy fire, hunger, thirst, fear, and excitement in order to shoot with precision at long distance, and also must be willing to blow someone's brains out. They have to look the target in the eyes and knowingly send a bullet into them. Even people that can master all of the previous skills sometimes cant do it at that point.
Sorry for the novel, but I figure too much info is better than not enough

:cool:
 
---That means that the skill of a marksman comes not from his ability to shoot (as with un-scoped rifles where you just aim and shoot, and that's the ability of shooting, that's my guess) ----


Umm yeah, just aim and shoot. So if I'm shooting at a 4 in bull at 200 yds on an iron sighted M-1a I have no concern for range, sight adj., bullet drop, bullet weight, stance, breathing, triggger control, my eyes going crossed trying to see that dot. I just aim and shoot. Thank you for making this so much easier for me, I'm off to Camp Perry to clean that place. Scopes are for sissies;)
 
Most good shooters can be taught to calculate.

Most good calculaters don't become good shooters.

Takes both, the figurin is the easy part.

Sam
 
I see. Tecnnique of the shot is important, such as controlling breathing, keeping the rifle steady, the sights, the way you squeeze the trigger and all that.

But to me it seems that is a much smaller part that shooting than the estimation and measurement and scope adjustments.
 
No, its the skill vs art deal here. Any knucklehead with a pocket protector can figure ballistic coefficient, bullet drop, wind drift, ranging technique etc. Its all math. With practice they can even estimate mirage and such. The trigger skills can be learned, but the hope is always to transcend to an art. To be able to process that math info to your eyeball, estimate and adjust, then gently squeeze between your heartbeats when everything looks good. Its like Zen, you can never get there but oh the journey of getting close to perfect. ;)
 
Marksmanship is a package deal. You can't isolate some segment and say, "This is important." and isolate some other segment and say, "That's unimportant."

Just a couple of examples:

Different segments may vary in importance with purpose and range. A target shooter is usually shooting at known distances; a hunter is not--and their needs for accuracy are not the same.

One who must shoot offhand has a higher priority on timing the sights and the signal to his trigger finger to coordinate with the wobble of his rifle than one who shoots from sandbags on a benchrest.

And so it goes,

Art
 
I agree it's a package deal.

But with all the calculations and training and Zen-induced self discipline, you _still_ have an exceedingly good chance of missing at 3000feet. First, a hypothetical 20" target is hard to see at 3000 feet...One entry in this thread mentioned the mirage effect, I've shot through it at this range, and the target is very often obscured, even a scope is obscured. The thousand yard shooting I've done was with an M1 30-06with issue sights , and later competition sights with 1/2minute clicks, the sights could be cranked up to hit accurately at that range, at a hanging gong
of sheet iron about 40 inches square. Trouble was wind deflection (variable on the way to the target) and mirage that obscured or distorted the target. We lerned to use the mirage effect, because with a semiautomatic weapon, you could track the bullet's path through the mirage waves and make corrections...when the gong went "Clang!", you held stedy and expended the rest of the clip. "Reactive" shooting with calculations in the form of range/windage sheets being only a tiney part of the package. Physics, chemestry, metallurgy, weather, weapons, ammo, sights, and train,train, train.
All this to get "Clang" 3000 feet away while you are lying there belly down in the grass...having the time of your life.
Nice package, occasionally everything comes together and you get
"Clang!" THe rest of the time you get to watch the bullets burning their way through the mirage.
Ditch the calculaters and try it.
 
"Ditch the calculaters and try it."
Now there is some sage advice. I would be willing to bet good money that if I placed a 20" target at a measured 1000 yards and handed the average shooter (let alone the average Joe) any rifle they wanted that was already zeroed for 1000 yards with any scope they wanted, they would have great difficulty in hitting it off a solid benchrest with sandbags.
Do try this at home as kind of a mini test of just one variable. Take a .22 rifle that you know is sighted in at 100 yards. Shoot the same rifle at 100 yards with just a slight breeze blowing across range and see how far the impact of the bullet changes. Oh, but we could put up a wind meter and then determine how many clicks of windage are required to compensate for a wind of that speed. What if the wind isn't steady ? What if a wind of that speed comes from even a slightly different direction ? Mirage, temperature, physical condition, eyesight.......................... come into play at long range like you can't believe unless you tried it. Take a rifle and shoot at 100 yards. See how big of a group you shoot. Then imagine how this group size grows at 1000 yards.
 
I hope no one thought that in my first post I was implying that being a marksman doesn't mean you have to know how to shoot well! Guess I limited myself to the "calculation and adjustment" part of the question to closely. You MUST have the basic skills before being able to "do math" will do you any good. (A house built on shifting sand and all that) The art of rifle comes in when you know your gun and load PLUS your skills so well that you make it look effortless.

I have never met someone who has picked up a high power rifle, hit a prone position and put them in the black at range, with no previous experience. No matter how well he could do math.

Rifle shooting is the one sport that I would say everyone can be taught to do to a useful skill level. And it is all built on the learned basics of marksmanship.
 
Silent Shadow,

Guy, I just gotta' chime in here... No slam on you, but the idea that long range shooting is more calculation than skil seems just a bit beyond credible.

Let me state right up front that I am not an experienced long range shooter. Right now, all my highpower competition and practice has been restricted to 100-200 yds. I'm looking forward to trying my hand at shooting X-course next year.

The local CMP highpower club I belong to is relatively new, started up in '99. We have a bunch of good guys who are also new to the highpower sport. Most of us have M1's purchased from CMP. Some of us shoot AR's and M1-A.

All of our local shooting is done at 100 yds using reduced targets. The 10 ring on the MR-31 target measures approx. 1.75 inches, or 1.75 MOA. Not too much different than your 20" bull at 1000 yds, 2.0 MOA.

Skill of our members varies widely, from some guys who can barely keep 50 shots in the scoring rings at 100, to a couple of us who have managed to rise above NRA "Marksman" and "Sharpshooter" into "Expert" and "Master". Technical aptitude also varies widely. We have every occupation represented from LEO's, farmers, construction workers, Medical Techs, postal workers, actor, truck drivers, College professor, College administrator, small business owners, and you name it.

I guess the point I was going for is that even with all these highly intelligent and trained professionals in our group, there seems to be no correlation between demonstrated technical ability and the skill necessary to hit a 1.75" Ten ring at 100 yds. At this range, there is almost NONE of the calculations that you'd deal with at 600 to 1000 yds. It is strictly learned skill and shooting technique.

It's like the old saying that the Army Marksmanship Unit Sarge told us in a seminar last year. He made the statement that, "Shooting a perfect X-ring shot is extremely simple in concept". "All you have to do is align your sights with the bull, then, without moving the sights, break the trigger".

If it's that simple, why isn't every shot an "X"??? Obviously they are not. And if it is not that simple and easy for practiced & motivated shooters to hit a 1.75" MOA X at 100 yds where wind, velocity variations, and mirage have no effect, how can it possibly be any easier for even an Einstein or Carl Sagan, no matter how motivated and technically gifted (yet unskilled in this sport) to hit a 2.0 MOA target at 1000 yds with all the OTHER handicaps that come into play???

No matter whether you are shooting at 100 yds. or 1000 yds., you HAVE TO HAVE the primary marksmanship skills FIRST before any high level calculations can do you a bit of good toward getting on target.....

Just my .02,
Swampy
 
What 3 gun & others said, ...



... but in a word, it's EXPERIENCE - which means PRACTICE, and lots of it.

Sure, having above-average eyesight, etc., may be the luck of genetics, but 95% of the shooting game, especially long-distance marksmanship with a rifle, is about getting out there and doing it.
 
To back up what Art said..

I may NOT be able to hit a bus at 1000 yards, but I'll bet you $50 i can drop a moving animal at 300 yards through the vitals with 1 shot.

Target shooting and "practical shooting" ala hunting are related but they are distant cousins. Yes there are a lot of calculations and factors involved in the long range game, wheter you use a mil dot scope or iron sights. For the record, I HATE MATH. that whole mil dot click up click down dance on the scope kinda bugs me. And the math seems more complicated than I can easily comprehend.

I memorized my +/- out to 400 yards with my prefered load, and I have a cheat sheet in my wallet. However, as an ethical hunter, I'd NEVER take a shot at 500 yards, thats just outside of MY range of ability.

However I can and HAVE jumped out of a moving jeep done a shoulder roll and popped a running animal at 200 yards. I'm not sure there is ANYTHING you can read/calculate/plan to make that shot happen. You just sorta learn that stuff by doing it.

I've read a few good references on the long range game, notably John Pilaster's 'practical sniper' it gives a good explanation in plain english about click ups, range finding, etimation, reading mirage etc. There is also a good section about breath control.

That all said and done, you can only learn so much by reading. You have to get out and shoot.
 
Target Vs. "Practical" shooting - an Example

The best example of the different shooting disciplines I can offer is my club's semi-annual Running-Deer match.
This is an offhand shoot at 100yds at a moving lifesized shilouette
of a running buck, 6 point rack & all;)
It's a money maker for the club...$2 buys you 3 shots ( your own ammo) at Bambi, who is mounted on a rail about 40yds long on cammed wheels so the target bobs erratically along it's course with a baloon wired to a killswitch stapled to the critters kill zone. Shoot the baloon = stop the target = win your $2 back...Simple?
_NOT!_ :eek:
This match is held following the regularly scheduled
Heavybore target match, and all those target shooters stick around, eat BBQ, and spend their $ taking chances at Bambi... with their very expensively tricked out target rifles. Poor souls:p
There's a very humiliating difference between blazing away at an immobolized target at 100 yds with a tricked up M16 clone and hitting a rocking, rolling , bouncing target at the same distance -
fireing offhand. These guys just *hate* to miss, but they do! And they get back in line and buy more chances :D As I said, the club makes a lot of $ with this stunt...Except for those of us who wise up to the deal, and bring our scoped hunting rifles;) :D
And switch our shooting mode to leading the target.
I've nailed Bambi with the with my second round on about the 3rd bounce the last 3 times. = Ruger .243 with a 6x Weaver scope. Good practice for coyote sniping. :)
 
Well a Bambi-shooter has a few seconds to solve an equation, given: Bambi's practicing not being there at around 30mph. That's 44 ft/sec. A bullet takes about 0.1 seconds to travel 100 yards.

Hokay. You gotta figure 1) how far; 2) angle; 3) how many times 4.4 feet, and what part of that 4.4 feet as a function of the angle do ya gotta lead him, and 4) what's behind him that you don't want to destroy if you miss.

Oh. Be careful you don't pull trigger just in time to have a tree jump in between you and Bambi.

You have somewhere in the neighborhood of three to five seconds to do all this. It gives a whole 'nother meaning to "guesstimation". And I wuz about to forget: Don't shoot him in the butt, if he's a going-away deer--and if his horns aren't wider than his butt, leave him for next year.

:D, Art
 
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