The ambush of Bonnie & Clyde

F

Fred S

New member
As we ponder the legalities of the "Elian grab" by federal agents, a notion popped into my head.

Was it legal for law enforcment officials to conduct the lethal ambush of Bonnie & Clyde?

If it was not legal to do so, why not? if not, were any of the LEOs punished or otherwise held accountable?

If it was not legal, why was it accepted? Because Bonnie and Clyde were so notorious?

If it was acceptable then why should it be any less acceptable today for government officals to do it today?

See what happens when you look the other way when the action is done against someone you don't agree with? It can come back to haunt you!
 
I think the facts were:

1) There was an existing warrant for their arrest

2) Known felons, and known to kill

3) Heavily armed

Seems like a good shoot to me...
 
Also, Frank Hamer, the man in charge of the Bonnie and Clyde shooting, held a special commission from the Bureau of Prisons and was specifically commissioned with hunting down the Barrow gang. And there were indeed outstanding warrants for them in several states.
 
Frank Hammer was an outstanding Texas Ranger. The famous phrase "ome riot, ome ranger" reffered to him. However, in the famous shootout witnesses observed that Hammer snapped his Remington semiautomatic rifle to his shoulder and double tapped Bonnie and Clyde shooting each of them twice through the forehead, This was effective but may have violated their civil rights.
 
By the legal standards of the time, Hammer's team certainly did no wrong. Remember, the law is an evolving creature and is in a constant state of flux. The standards, rights, and legalities of 2000 should not be applied to Hammer's time.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I think the facts were:
1) There was an existing warrant for their arrest

2) Known felons, and known to kill

3) Heavily armed[/quote]

That sounds like the Feds' description of the Weaver family at Ruby Ridge.
 
Consider the fact that clyde Barrow's weapon of chice was a full auto browning automatic rifle in 30-06 and you'll realize why they set the ambush. I recall reading that several remington .351 semi-auto rifles were used but NO Tommy-guns. The "double tap" reffered to was a coup de grace as I recall as well. (ie the ranger walked up and put two rounds into the twitching bodies) By today's standards the "arresting officers" would be on trial for murder. Its good that they got the right car and the right people. Imagine if that would have been an innocent bystander.

But recall that this was a time when cops did things differently, this was pre-miranda and this sort of "enforcement" has become less and less common (with noteable exceptions, ie Dillenger, Waco, etc etc).

bonnie and Clyde remain folk heros partially BECAUSE they were ambushed 'unfairly", the same way we all know Billy the kid and dillenger were shot in the back. These modern "folk heros" have had more lies and rumors and innuendo around them than waco and ruby ridge combined.

But it does make good food for thought.

Dr.Rob
 
Quoted from the FBI website:

"In addition to the automobile theft charge, Bonnie and Clyde were suspects in other
crimes. At the time they were killed in 1934, they were believed to have committed 13
murders and several robberies and burglaries. Barrow, for example, was suspected of murdering two police officers at Joplin, Missouri, and kidnaping a man and a
woman in rural Louisiana. He released them near Waldo, Texas. Numerous sightings
followed, linking this pair with bank robberies and automobile thefts. Clyde allegedly murdered a man at Hillsboro, Texas; committed robberies at Lufkin and Dallas,
Texas; murdered one sheriff and wounded another at Stringtown, Oklahoma; kidnaped a deputy at Carlsbad, New Mexico; stole an automobile at Victoria, Texas; attempted to murder a deputy at Wharton, Texas; committed murder and robbery at Abilene and Sherman, Texas; committed murder at Dallas, Texas; abducted a sheriff and the chief of police at Wellington, Texas; and committed murder at Joplin and Columbia, Missouri."


Considering these circumstances, it is no surprise that Frank Hamer and colleagues were quick on the trigger when they finally caught up with Bonnie and Clyde. Even by the legal standards of today, who can honestly say it would be much different were officers in pursuit of such violent criminals?
 
David Roberson

In hitories of the Texas Rangers I have read the saying is said to have originated during the Brownsville riots circa 1905. The Mayor gad requsted a company of rangers. Frank Hanner was passing through on a train and was telegraped to go at once to Brownsvolle.
A telegraph operator wired the Mayor "Rangers arriving on train at (time)
The Mayor rushed to the station and awas astounded when only Frank Hammer got off.
"my God. did yjr Governor only send one ranger/" he cried.
Hammer looked at the Mayor and said "You'vr only got onr riot don't you?"

Not to be argumentative, but because I really want to know. do you have any evidence that the phrase was used earlier and if so, when and where and about which ranger?
 
An account I read in the American Rifleman many years ago stated that Hamer stepped out in front of the car and plugged Clyde. When Clyde's foot slipped off the clutch and the car started lurching for the ditch, the rest of the ambush team dropped a world of hurt on 'em. So I read.
 
Hutch
Hammer said he shot Clyde and then aimed at Bonnie. He later said "I hated to bust a cap on a woman, but when I saw her grinning like a mad dog as she fired I pulled the trigger."
 
Hardball, the guy's name was Frank HAMER. The book in which I read about this saying did not attribute it to any particular Ranger, but it was in a situation similar to what you describe. In this version I read, the mayor wires for a company of troops to put down a riot, is told the troops aren't available, and so he wires back that if they can't send a company of troops, they should send one Ranger. The book is somewhere around here in my tidy home, and I'll see if I can find it.

In another book which I _can_ find, Hamer was quoted as saying that his team set their ambush for the Barrow gang about eight miles outside Plain Dealing, La., near a pine stump that the Barrows used for a mail drop. They criminals stopped their car at the edge of the road with the engine idling and were looking toward the stump when Hamer's team, on the other side of the road from the stump, accosted them.

Hamer said: "At the command 'stick 'em up" both turned, but instead of obeying the order as we had hoped, they swung up their guns which were either in their laps or resting on the seat between them. When our firing began, Barrow's foot released the clutch and the car, in low gear, moved forward on the decline and turned into the ditch on the left. I looked at my watch and it was 9:20.

"There can be no question raised as to who fired the first shot or the fatal shots. All fired as we had agreed to do and every man in the squad did everything he was supposed to do. It was not a pleasant duty, but it was duty which no one shirked."

Hamer's inventory of the arms in the Barrow car included three BARs and 100 loaded magazines for same, one sawed-off Winchester Model 12 16-gauge, one sawed-off Winchester Model 12 20-gauge, one Colt New Service .45, seven Colt 1911s, one Colt .380, one Colt .32, and 3,000 assorted rounds of ammo.
 
>>Hamer said: "At the command 'stick 'em up" both turned, but instead of obeying the order as we had hoped, they swung up their guns which were either in their laps or resting on the seat between them. When our firing began, Barrow's foot released the clutch and the car, in low gear, moved forward on the decline and turned into the ditch on the left. I looked at my watch and it was 9:20.<<

Well, then it was'nt an ambush and the LEOs acted correctly. Looks like lore took hold (and Hollywood)and turned it into an ambush.

So Hamer and crew acted correctly and legally. There is no comparison to the Elian grab. Or is there? The INS claims ahtey had a waarant and produced it later it the week. The warrant said a copy of it along with a receipt of items taken must be left. So the question is was the warrant served properly?
 
Common Denis:
To" bust a cap" dates back to cap and ball guns and was an old Texas expression meaning to fire a shot from a cap & ball weapon.
 
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