A marksman once told me..."The 9mm cartridge is not known as an accuracy round...rather a fire power round used in a MP5, UZI, etc. I have often heard this from, as I said pros....Can someone elaborate on this and if so what is the range of a 9mm cardtidge. Please no opinions, looking for facts.
The accuracy of a 9mm cartidge.....
- Thread starter hattricks
- Start date
imthegrumpyone
New member
Every cartridge is only as good as the person behind the gun.
The SIG P210 is generally considered to be one of the most accurate centerfire autopistols you can buy. It's chambered in 9mm.
Here's a group that measures 1.6 inches center-to-center. I shot it at 25 yards with a stock CZ75 and generic (American Eagle) 9mm FMJ practice ammunition. (I can produce witnesses if necessary. )
That said, I don't think the 9mm is significantly more or less accurate than other generally similar autopistol cartridges. In fact, barring some actual serious design problem (such as the initial attempt to headspace the .38 Super off the rim) I believe it's a mistake to try to assign relative accuracy rankings to centerfire pistol cartridges. There are simply too many other factors that are more important and that have far more significant effects on practical accuracy.
Even pros can be wrong.
Here's a group that measures 1.6 inches center-to-center. I shot it at 25 yards with a stock CZ75 and generic (American Eagle) 9mm FMJ practice ammunition. (I can produce witnesses if necessary.
)That said, I don't think the 9mm is significantly more or less accurate than other generally similar autopistol cartridges. In fact, barring some actual serious design problem (such as the initial attempt to headspace the .38 Super off the rim) I believe it's a mistake to try to assign relative accuracy rankings to centerfire pistol cartridges. There are simply too many other factors that are more important and that have far more significant effects on practical accuracy.
9mm
I, too, heard that - years ago - when I started shooting Bullseye matches. The 9mm was "too brittle" (whatever that meant). It was true that one did not see the 9mm used at all in those matches. Those fellows had never heard of the Sig P210. I know that I hadn't.
Then the USAMU armorers , and others, figured out how to accurize the Beretta 92 and then 9mm was OK. Nowadays you can buy a 9mm match gun that will shoot ten shot X-ring groups (the x-ring is 1.6" wide) at 50 yards. Of course, the 210 has been able to do that for decades.
Pete
I, too, heard that - years ago - when I started shooting Bullseye matches. The 9mm was "too brittle" (whatever that meant). It was true that one did not see the 9mm used at all in those matches. Those fellows had never heard of the Sig P210. I know that I hadn't.
Then the USAMU armorers , and others, figured out how to accurize the Beretta 92 and then 9mm was OK. Nowadays you can buy a 9mm match gun that will shoot ten shot X-ring groups (the x-ring is 1.6" wide) at 50 yards. Of course, the 210 has been able to do that for decades.
Pete
The 9mm is just as accurate as any othe cartridge in a quality gun.
I just qualified Monday with my BUG, a S&W 360J that has been rechambered to fire 9mm. I've fielded lots of questions about the accuracy of a 13oz 9mm snubby in general, but also specifically about the fact that I'm shooting .355" bullets through a .357" barrel. Lots of people say that accuracy wise it should be terrible. Well, that isn't the case, the accuracy is more than acceptable even out of a .38cal barrel.
This is a brief write up I posted on another forum about qualifying with my gun with a pic of my target.
I spent the last two days doing weapon qualifications and training (on & off duty pistol, BUG, patrol rifle, shotgun). Here in Maine the qualification standards are set by the Maine Criminal Justice Academy, so everybody shoots the same courses of fire regardless of agency. Recently they added a new category called "Plain Clothes Pistol" to accomodate officers carrying off-duty guns and BUGs, as well retired officers qualifying under LEOSA/HR218. It is very similar to the normal duty weapon course of fire except there is no prone shooting and you shoot from a maximum of 18yds instead of 25yds. Oh, and we have to shoot each course of fire twice, back to back, for each weapon. Here's the course of fire from their website -
******************************
Maine Criminal Justice Academy
Plain Clothes Course of Fire
50 Rounds
Shooter Proficiency = 40 hits total (80%) back to back.
Total
Distance Activity Time Rounds
3 Yard 6 Rounds total - from holster
1 round standing 2 second
2 rounds standing 3 seconds
3 rounds standing 3 seconds 6 rounds
5 Yard 9 Rounds Total – from Holster
Failure Drill = (2 to the chest and 1 to the head)
2 rounds standing, pulse fire, center mass 3 seconds
2 rounds standing, pulse fire, center mass 3 seconds
2 rounds standing, pulse fire, center mass 3 seconds
3 rounds, failure drill, pulse fire 3 seconds 9 rounds
7 Yard 9 Rounds Total – from Holster
On the whistle, take one lateral side step and fire
2 rounds standing, pulse fire, center mass 4 Seconds
2 rounds standing, pulse fire, center mass 4 Seconds
2 rounds standing, pulse fire, center mass 4 Seconds
3 rounds, failure drill, pulse fire 3 seconds 9 rounds
10 yard 6 Rounds Total - Ready Gun
3 rounds, standing, pulse fire, center mass 3 Seconds
3 rounds, kneeling, failure drill 4 seconds 6 rounds
12 yard 4 Rounds Total - Ready Gun
2 rounds, standing, pulse fire, center mass 3 Seconds
2 rounds, standing, pulse fire, center mass 3 Seconds 4 rounds
15 yard 4 Rounds Total – Ready Gun – Barricade
2 rounds standing, over barricade
2 rounds kneeling, strong side barricade 10 seconds 4 rounds
18 yard 6 Rounds Total – Ready Gun - Barricade
From the 25 yard line draw the weapon and safely
move to the barricade at the 18 yard line.
2 rounds standing, over barricade
2 rounds kneeling right side barricade
2 rounds kneeling left side barricade 15 seconds 6 rounds
18 yard 6 Rounds Total – Center Mass - Ready Gun – Move and Shoot
All weapons should have at least 6 rounds for this drill
Approach Target on Command – Low Ready
Threat Command - High Ready and Verbalize ID and Command.
Fire Command – 3 shots center mass
Stop, Dress Line and Command to Back-Up – Low Ready
Threat Command – High Ready and Verbalize
Fire Command – 3 shots center mass (No Time) 6 rounds
Dress Line and Command to Back-Up – Ready Gun
Shooters should be empty. Make line safe. 50 Rounds
*************************
Anyway, this was the first time I've been able to qualify with my 9mm S&W 360 that you've all seen numerous times. I had my concerns because I haven't shot it further than 12-15yds and it has been mostly plinking, making sure I was shooting "minute of POS", and general relaxed practice. Also, there have been a lot of questions about accuracy shooting .355" bullets out of a .357" barrel. Well, I have to say that I was pleasantly surprised by the gun's performance. Our targets are the narrow, coke bottle shaped "Q" targets so we score hits, not points, and I had no trouble with the course of fire shooting DAO. The first time through I scored 49 (I threw a head shot and knew it as soon as the hammer fell) and the second run was a perfect 50. The gun shot a little high using Magtech 115gr FMJ but windage was right on. I was able to use the laser at closer ranges but the sights were fine for beyond 10yds. I shot better with this gun than I did my off-duty gun, a Kahr CW9, on the same course of fire, and my duty gun, a Beretta 8000D, on the regular course. I've qualified in the past with a 642 and did not shoot this well, but, in it's defense (and mine) that was on the 25yd regular course, also.
BTW, moonclips are the way to go. I threw 10 loaded ones in my cargo pocket each time I shot and they all held together except one, which broke when I was loading it but I still got 4 rounds in. They are superfast going in and coming out with the short 9mm rounds. MUCH easier and faster than either speed strips or speed loaders.
Here is a pic of my second target, the 50/50 -
So, based on my shooting and that of the range master, who just HAD to try it out (for about 30rds), there is no appreciable loss of accuracy at combat ranges with this conversion. The gun was 100% reliable, shooting 100rds in about 35 minutes with zero issues, very controllable, and very accurate (IMO). It was also nice to be reassured that my money was well spent and this certainly bolstered my confidence in the gun.
I just qualified Monday with my BUG, a S&W 360J that has been rechambered to fire 9mm. I've fielded lots of questions about the accuracy of a 13oz 9mm snubby in general, but also specifically about the fact that I'm shooting .355" bullets through a .357" barrel. Lots of people say that accuracy wise it should be terrible. Well, that isn't the case, the accuracy is more than acceptable even out of a .38cal barrel.
This is a brief write up I posted on another forum about qualifying with my gun with a pic of my target.
I spent the last two days doing weapon qualifications and training (on & off duty pistol, BUG, patrol rifle, shotgun). Here in Maine the qualification standards are set by the Maine Criminal Justice Academy, so everybody shoots the same courses of fire regardless of agency. Recently they added a new category called "Plain Clothes Pistol" to accomodate officers carrying off-duty guns and BUGs, as well retired officers qualifying under LEOSA/HR218. It is very similar to the normal duty weapon course of fire except there is no prone shooting and you shoot from a maximum of 18yds instead of 25yds. Oh, and we have to shoot each course of fire twice, back to back, for each weapon. Here's the course of fire from their website -
******************************
Maine Criminal Justice Academy
Plain Clothes Course of Fire
50 Rounds
Shooter Proficiency = 40 hits total (80%) back to back.
Total
Distance Activity Time Rounds
3 Yard 6 Rounds total - from holster
1 round standing 2 second
2 rounds standing 3 seconds
3 rounds standing 3 seconds 6 rounds
5 Yard 9 Rounds Total – from Holster
Failure Drill = (2 to the chest and 1 to the head)
2 rounds standing, pulse fire, center mass 3 seconds
2 rounds standing, pulse fire, center mass 3 seconds
2 rounds standing, pulse fire, center mass 3 seconds
3 rounds, failure drill, pulse fire 3 seconds 9 rounds
7 Yard 9 Rounds Total – from Holster
On the whistle, take one lateral side step and fire
2 rounds standing, pulse fire, center mass 4 Seconds
2 rounds standing, pulse fire, center mass 4 Seconds
2 rounds standing, pulse fire, center mass 4 Seconds
3 rounds, failure drill, pulse fire 3 seconds 9 rounds
10 yard 6 Rounds Total - Ready Gun
3 rounds, standing, pulse fire, center mass 3 Seconds
3 rounds, kneeling, failure drill 4 seconds 6 rounds
12 yard 4 Rounds Total - Ready Gun
2 rounds, standing, pulse fire, center mass 3 Seconds
2 rounds, standing, pulse fire, center mass 3 Seconds 4 rounds
15 yard 4 Rounds Total – Ready Gun – Barricade
2 rounds standing, over barricade
2 rounds kneeling, strong side barricade 10 seconds 4 rounds
18 yard 6 Rounds Total – Ready Gun - Barricade
From the 25 yard line draw the weapon and safely
move to the barricade at the 18 yard line.
2 rounds standing, over barricade
2 rounds kneeling right side barricade
2 rounds kneeling left side barricade 15 seconds 6 rounds
18 yard 6 Rounds Total – Center Mass - Ready Gun – Move and Shoot
All weapons should have at least 6 rounds for this drill
Approach Target on Command – Low Ready
Threat Command - High Ready and Verbalize ID and Command.
Fire Command – 3 shots center mass
Stop, Dress Line and Command to Back-Up – Low Ready
Threat Command – High Ready and Verbalize
Fire Command – 3 shots center mass (No Time) 6 rounds
Dress Line and Command to Back-Up – Ready Gun
Shooters should be empty. Make line safe. 50 Rounds
*************************
Anyway, this was the first time I've been able to qualify with my 9mm S&W 360 that you've all seen numerous times. I had my concerns because I haven't shot it further than 12-15yds and it has been mostly plinking, making sure I was shooting "minute of POS", and general relaxed practice. Also, there have been a lot of questions about accuracy shooting .355" bullets out of a .357" barrel. Well, I have to say that I was pleasantly surprised by the gun's performance. Our targets are the narrow, coke bottle shaped "Q" targets so we score hits, not points, and I had no trouble with the course of fire shooting DAO. The first time through I scored 49 (I threw a head shot and knew it as soon as the hammer fell) and the second run was a perfect 50. The gun shot a little high using Magtech 115gr FMJ but windage was right on. I was able to use the laser at closer ranges but the sights were fine for beyond 10yds. I shot better with this gun than I did my off-duty gun, a Kahr CW9, on the same course of fire, and my duty gun, a Beretta 8000D, on the regular course. I've qualified in the past with a 642 and did not shoot this well, but, in it's defense (and mine) that was on the 25yd regular course, also.
BTW, moonclips are the way to go. I threw 10 loaded ones in my cargo pocket each time I shot and they all held together except one, which broke when I was loading it but I still got 4 rounds in. They are superfast going in and coming out with the short 9mm rounds. MUCH easier and faster than either speed strips or speed loaders.
Here is a pic of my second target, the 50/50 -
So, based on my shooting and that of the range master, who just HAD to try it out (for about 30rds), there is no appreciable loss of accuracy at combat ranges with this conversion. The gun was 100% reliable, shooting 100rds in about 35 minutes with zero issues, very controllable, and very accurate (IMO). It was also nice to be reassured that my money was well spent and this certainly bolstered my confidence in the gun.
Shadi Khalil
New member
You get and then give out allot of bad info with nothing to back it up...Here is a gem from another post...
Do you get that from the same "pros" (whatever that means) who fed you the line in this thread?
Do you get that from the same "pros" (whatever that means) who fed you the line in this thread?
As others have said it's more the shooter and the particular gun and particular ammo that are the most important factors. When the U.S. military switched to the 9mm from the .45acp they found that the shooting scores of new recruits being trained in pistol shooting improved markedly. This had more to do with reduced recoil and newer pistols than the inherent qualities of the round. But having said that...
When NATO was formed and adopted the 9mm FMJ as it's standard round the cartridge underwent a bit of a redesign to improve it's long range accuracy. Meaning out beyond 50 yards. The bullet tips were given a more conical shape rather than round and this improved their performance.
It is not true that the round was ever inaccurate. It is true that in the U.S.
In this country the rounds "known as accuracy rounds" have been the .38 Spl., the .357 Magnum, the .44 Special, the .44 Magnum and the .45acp. This is largely due to their being used in bullseye competition and in hunting.
In Europe, where the 9mm has a longer history in competition than here, it has a reputation for accuracy.
tipoc
When NATO was formed and adopted the 9mm FMJ as it's standard round the cartridge underwent a bit of a redesign to improve it's long range accuracy. Meaning out beyond 50 yards. The bullet tips were given a more conical shape rather than round and this improved their performance.
It is not true that the round was ever inaccurate. It is true that in the U.S.
In this country the rounds "known as accuracy rounds" have been the .38 Spl., the .357 Magnum, the .44 Special, the .44 Magnum and the .45acp. This is largely due to their being used in bullseye competition and in hunting.
In Europe, where the 9mm has a longer history in competition than here, it has a reputation for accuracy.
tipoc
I can state with complete honesty that my Walther P5 is far more accurate than I, the shooter, am.
Actually, it's pretty accurate - I pretty easily hit what I aim at out to 50 feet or so. I'm more accurate with it than with my Taurus M66 in .357 or .38, but I also shoot the P5 quite a bit more than the revolver.
Now, my wife...she could probably shoot a fly out of the air with the Taurus and .38s. Honestly, it's a double edged sword when we go out to the range. I'm proud of her ability, but you know how the whole macho man thing goes...
Actually, it's pretty accurate - I pretty easily hit what I aim at out to 50 feet or so. I'm more accurate with it than with my Taurus M66 in .357 or .38, but I also shoot the P5 quite a bit more than the revolver.
Now, my wife...she could probably shoot a fly out of the air with the Taurus and .38s. Honestly, it's a double edged sword when we go out to the range. I'm proud of her ability, but you know how the whole macho man thing goes...
oneounceload
Moderator
My H&K P7 is considered by many to be one of the most accurate pistols available - At 7 yards, the groups I shoot are basically one big ragged hole - not even my Kimber 45 is that good
I'd LOVE to find me a S&W 547 3'RB that I could afford - no moon clips
I'd LOVE to find me a S&W 547 3'RB that I could afford - no moon clips
PhoenixConflagration
New member
It's been my experience that "Pro" often equates to "Blowhard" in many fields.
Let's see...the most common caliber in Bianchi Cup is 9mm, followed by .38 Super. Seeing as Bianchi Cup involves hitting a 4 inch X-ring at distances up to 50 yards, yeah it's not accurate at all. Might as well just toss all your 9mm in the trash, or better yet send it to me.
bufordtjustice
New member
I shot a 6 inch diameter steel plate at over 50 yards with a sig 228 using 124gr. hydrashok. I fired twice and hit twice. It is plenty accurate as far as I am concerned.
Average Joe
New member
A marksman once told me. Its not the gun , its the shooter.
I'm not so sure what being a flat shooter has to do with gun or cartridge accuracy. Pretty much nothing. Gun/cartridge accuracy can be great with a gun that shoots like a slow pitch softball just as long as the hits are in the same place. A super zorch improved magnum can be highly inaccurate while having the least bullet drop.
A .38 special shooting 158 gr. wad cutters is one of the most accurate combinatins you can get and it lobbs slow pitch softballs at 750-850 fps.
A .38 special shooting 158 gr. wad cutters is one of the most accurate combinatins you can get and it lobbs slow pitch softballs at 750-850 fps.