The .45 acp in combat

S

Super-Dave

New member
The .45 acp has been around a long long time. Soldiers have used it in every war since WW I.

I have never read any reports or heard any soldiers complaining or whining about .45 acp fmj.

Now in the civillian world and in law enforcement all anyone has to say about the .45 acp fmj is to complain about how it is such a bad round to use.

Why is this? Why do only civillians and law enforcement whine about the .45 acp fmj?
 
In the USA for law enforcment or for personal defense, FMJ is looked down upon generally period. I beleive it is mainly because there is so many great options for HPs! Why anyone would use FMJ for self defense when there are so many great hollow points is beyond me, so I guess I would agree.
 
I have never read any reports or heard any soldiers complaining or whining about .45 acp fmj.
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The UCMJ doesn't permit complaining and whining... :)

Seriously, soldiers have to put up with what they are issued. (There are exceptions, such as SOCOM et al, and these groups can select their weapons. Most are stuck with issue.)

FMJ was and is an issue involving rules of warfare. Tests have shown that hollow points are generally better at stopping than FMJ, but hollowpoints weren't / aren't permitted for war. Apparently OK for civilian and LEO use, however.

From what little I've read about complaints about .45 ACP FMJ, civilian users aren't whining. They are just stating that they'd rather use something more effective, given a choice.
 
FMJ is actually preferable for some S/D applications, Super-Dave, from what I've been told. Specifically, if you are using an underpowered caliber (.22 LR, .25, .32), it may improve your chances of penetrating enough to hit a vital organ and stop the bad guy. It's also a better choice, I am told, for defense against bears or other large four-legged predators.
 
Why anyone would use FMJ for self defense when there are so many great hollow points is beyond me,
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Cause it works in a 45 ACP. I believe the term is THEY ALL FALL TO HARDBALL

The UCMJ doesn't permit complaining and whining...
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Been around soldiers much?????

Ever hear the tern 'A BITCHING SOLDIER IS A HAPPY SOLDIER"

As a company commander of three differant companies, I can tell you soldier do bitch, whine and complain, Its part of the soldiers creed.
 
Been around soldiers much?????
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No, I was in the Navy. We tried to avoid soldiers as much as possible.

It was an attempt at humor. Sailors also had to get the job done, and complaining and whining was quite common while the task was being performed. As long as the results were good, we generally tolerated the verbal nonsense that occurred enroute.
 
Speaking of the .45ACP and the 1911. Does anyone know the actual date it was accepted? A special celebration should be scheduled for that day. I would say the 1911 pistol and the .45ACP cartridge are an unqualified success.
 
The cartridge/pistol combination was quite successful but not satisfactory for U.S. military purposes. Over the next few years a series of improved designs were offered, culminating in the adoption in 1911 of the "Cal. .45 Automatic Pistol Ball Cartridge, Model of 1911", a 1.273 inch cartridge with a bullet weight of 230 grains. The very first production, at Frankford Arsenal, was marked "F A 8 11", for the August 1911 date.
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And the link -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.45_ACP

This is, of course, just a quick search and it doesn't show the exact date. Looks like 100 years might be this August!
 
Why 230gr hardball, in .45acp?

Well, for a century now, it's turned "bad guys" into "good guys."

The 230gr FMJ feeds flawlessly, is one of the most accurate cartridges of all time, and is quite capable of "taking out the trash," or "feeding the hogs..." The Hague Accords and Geneva Convention aside, the .45acp in FMJ STILL has dealt swift justice to America's enemies for a century.

Yes, there are superb defensive loads like Winchester's PDX1 and Corbon's DPX. They reduce the need, by a trifle, for absolute perfection in bullet placement- but not enough to be sloppy, or take bullet design and performance, for granted... Remember, as Clint Smith of Thunder Ranch has said, "Your pistol is what you use, to get back to the rifle or shotgun, you shouldn't have put down in the first place!"

Only the .45acp and 9mm can claim a joint crown, as man killers. In most cases, they've shared the distinction of using FMJs... Using fewer rounds, the .45acp has the title of most efficient man killer- using FMJs...

What do I use? Depends upon where I go, and the perceived condition of my destination or routes... Primarily PDX1, but ALWAYS, at least 4 mags, 52 rds, of 230gr Hardball to hand... Why? Because it's what I train with... I know it will go where I aim it. From history's lessons, I know that it will put down whatever/whomever it hits.

What weapons do I carry? Glock 21 and Glock 30, both 3rd Gen, and both with factory night sights... I've had ten 1911s over the last 40 years, and the last was a Kimber Desert Warrior. I traded it for my Glocks, new, and I'll never go back.

What I didn't change, was my favorite cartridge, the .45acp...
 
Now in the civillian world and in law enforcement all anyone has to say about the .45 acp fmj is to complain about how it is such a bad round to use.

Why is this? Why do only civillians and law enforcement whine about the .45 acp fmj?
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It's because they talk a lot- and fight almost never. The vast majority will shoot targets, read magazines, yammer about effectiveness and never turn a handgun on a living thing.
 
I found during 17 years in the military, . . . and 65 years on terra firma, . . . that people just flat out like to complain. Most of them have never owned an original thought that was not a complaint, . . . it is their mantra.

Secondarily, . . . there is enough rumor, innuendo, trash, and outright lies out there about the 1911 and the .45 ACP FMJ cartridge to put together a couple full length feature films.

My favorite came from a friend who in all likelihood has never fired a hand gun. Some relative of his supposedly fired a standard 1911 once. The recoil was so fierce that the gun came back in an arc a full 180 and the rear sight put a gash in her head that had to be closed with stitches. Uhhh, . . . ummm, . . . uhhh, . . . yeah :barf:

I just let em rant on, . . . I've owned em for over 40 years, . . . they're great weapons and a great cartridge, . . . and the whiners can just whine on.

May God bless,
Dwight
 
They complain because they can...

ANd they aren't happy with what they think is less then the best. This general attitude is what brings about innovation and advances in technology. But it can get tiring to listen to sometimes!

Fewer and fewer people alive today remember when virtually all auto pistol ammo was FMJ. Even match .45 ammo was sometimes FMJ SWC.

When everything from .25 to .45 only comes in FMJ, nobody "whined" about it, except to wish we had something else to try. Wartime experience in actual combat proved the .45 worked. And generally worked a little better than other calibers. From there, the legend grew.

.45 FMJ isn't magic. It fails to stop adversaries sometimes, even with everything else seeming to be "right". But the rate it fails to perform is less than everything else in the era that was in common use.

Read enough combat history and you will find plenty of examples of 1911s jamming, and of the .45 failing to stop a determined enemy instantly. Its not that it never failed, but that it failed significantly less often than the other guys stuff that made the legend, and you know how a good legend gets over time. A few million successes over decades probably had a little to do with it too,;)
 
Why, most soldiers'd rather carry a .45 auto instead of a rifle, it's so much better. Ain't that right, Sarge?
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I'd rather carry the .45 myself... at least until the fight starts, at which time I'd prefer something that'll shoot through a 68 Buick longways- at 800 yards.
 
One might get the opinion that several maxims apply to soldiers and their gear, including the .45 auto. For instance,

The enemy has better equipment (guns that shoot faster, has thicker armor and more of everything).

We don't have enough stuff (always true in war).

We have too much stuff to carry (always true in war).

The guns we used to have was a lot better than what we have now.

You shouldn't be shooting so the enemy can't find your position (although he has you "pinned down" with fire.

Our troops are operating too far from home (so you'd rather fight in your backyard?).

Etc, etc, etc.
 
Why is this? Why do only civillians and law enforcement whine about the .45 acp fmj?
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I got tired of hearing from the disciples of Jeff Cooper that the 45 ACP is more powerful than Zesus’s lighting bolts. I mean they came up with stuff that claimed one stop shots 19 out of 20 times.

Ridiculous.

Handguns are a last resort weapon. Maybe fingernails, rocks and pocketknives are a last, last resort weapon, but handguns are behind a lot of other weapon systems. Not that I want to get hit with any of them.

Of the handgun rounds out there, the 45ACP is an excellent round, big, fat, makes a good hole and will go through a lot of meat. I think bigger is better in terms of damage to target.

Yesterday I was talking to a Vietnam veteran. He carried a S&W 38 Spl in his waist band. It was light and would have been a last ditch weapon. His opinion on handguns was something to the effect if you have to resort to a handgun, something has gone terribly wrong in the execution of your warplan. Something like that, but with the colorful words removed.

He had heard all this stuff about one hit to a torso with a 45’s was a guaranteed manstopper, but I think it was just Army theology, not fact. In fact when I challenged that by telling him that I had read all sorts of reports of people who were shot to heck and kept on coming, he relayed a war story.

He used to know, and play tennis with, a General who was at the time the Divisional commander of the 101 Airborne. That General, in his junior days, was in a Command Post in Vietnam. The Command Post was overrun and Junior General jumped in some sort of bomb shelter hole. A NVA soldier saw this and poked his AK47 into the hole and shot Junior General five times. Junior General survived due to fast MEDIVAC, and my friend mentioned seeing surgery marks on General’s torso. So there were at least one, maybe two 7.62X39 shots in the upper torso, along with the hit scars he saw on an arm and leg.

Nothing, including rifle rounds, are guaranteed killers all the time.

But back on the 45ACP, I would rather have that as a weapon round than a 9mm any day of the week.

But I would rather my M1a over a 45ACP.
 
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