The 2nd amendment is DECEASED.

S

Sprig

Moderator
Over the last few days I have given the NICS outage extra thought. I have reached the conclusion that the 2nd amendment is dead.

For four days, 100% of NONregistered persons could not take possesion of purchased firearms for 4 days. Only those persons, in select states with differing laws, whom have licensed themselves with CCW "permits" were allowed to take possession of legaly purchased firearms.

The 2nd amendment is now truly dead. I heard argument that the NICS system failure didn't prevent purchase of the firearm. That is true. What it did was prevent the bearing of an allready owned firearm. Thats clearly contrary to the intent of the 2nd amendment.

I can no longer purchase the Colts, the Brownings, or the Smiths in my local gun store that I could just 1 year ago. Why aren't the alarm bells sounding at full volume?

That slippery slope is getting awefull steep right now.

Sprig
 
I bought a shotgun and a pistol this weekend. Wonder how the country got along before 'gun stores' were invented.

The NICS blackout has focused the attention of Congress on the NICS system, and the FBI. This is a good thing.

LawDog
 
Damn you for saying it Sprig but I think you are correct.

Regardless of our current position, the 2nd is being treated as a mere privledge that can easily (as we are witnessing) be legislated away.

Honestly, do you guys see some "event" that will suddenly turn the tide around (read: suddenly educate the majority)?

CMOS

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NRA? Good. Now joing the GOA!
 
Alan Korwin "Gun Laws of America" will be on the Ken Hamblin show tomorrow (Friday) to talk about the NICS shutdown.

Hamblin is on at 1 :pm-ish (from Denver). He is on tape delay all over the country (9pm here in Phoenix on 910 KFYI no daylight savings time). If you don't get Hamblin you can get him (probably) by going to www.kfyi.com and doing the Real Audio thing

Rick
Spread the word
 
sprig,

Welcome to TFL.

"I heard argument that the NICS system failure didn't prevent purchase of the firearm. That is true. What it did was prevent the bearing of an allready owned firearm."

I cannot reconcile this statement though. NICS didn't prevent a purchase, it only prevented delivery to a buyer. Semantics, but who cares if you can't take possession? & I don't understand one bit the "prevent the bearing of an already owned firearm."

Please explain that.

What I really don't understand ( & this for the masses) is where is there outcry?!

I really am in the loop for many a gunner-type & have heard very little re "this is an outrage!"

As stunned as I am about the system "going down," I am as equally stunned about the lack of shouting.

Too, caught as quick "glimpse" that it "went down" again 5/18 .... anything further?
 
labgrade,
Please bear in mind that even if there were(and there is) some shouting it would be treated the same way it was treated in OZ. IIRC, something like a gazillion protesters were ignored.
 
With all due respect, you're wrong. An amendment, like the Constitution itself or the rights ennumerated therein, can NEVER die. It may lie dormant, it may be abused, it may be disregard, but it can't die. It lies in wait for people of courage and resolve to come to its aid and demand its recognition. As long as we live, it lives. And when we die, it lies ready to be reawakened and passed on to the next generation.
 
Buzz, you get my attention first.

I dissagre with you. An amendment can die, and it has.

However, the right can never die.

The Amendment we speak of is there to restrict the government from taking away our rights. The government is doing this.

The right remains, as it is inailiable.

Still, the 2nd amendment, the agreement with our government, is dead.

Sprig
 
Labgrade stated
---Quote---
I cannot reconcile this statement though. NICS didn't prevent a purchase, it only prevented delivery to a buyer. Semantics, but who cares if you can't take possession? & I don't understand one bit the "prevent the bearing of an already owned firearm."

Please explain that
---end quote---

I meant only what I considered normal sales of firearms. Where you go to the store, see a firearm, pick it up, pay for it, get NICS checked and find the system is down and you can't have it.

Clearly you have possession of it, or its on the counter infront of you, and clearly you own it as you have the recipt, as you have paid for it. But, clearly you can't bear it outside of the store.

There is no "delivery" in the physical sense if you have already had the item in hand for examination prior to purchase.

The comment of mine, "prevent the bearing of an already owned firearm." regards what I know about purchasing in two states. Other states may have different guidelines. However, here in my state, like I said, you pay for it, get the recipet, then get NIXED. You OWN the gun, its yours. But the goverment won't let you walk outside the store with it. To me it seemed the use of the word "bear" was more consistant with the restriction placed upon persons in this situation.

Sprig
 
I think Sprig is correct in a real sense. If you ordered a gun from a dealer and paid for it before hand (as I have done) and then tried to pick up the gun when it finally arrived during a NICS black out, which are getting longer and more frequent it seems, then you are being denied the use of your property for at least the duration of that blackout and also until you can manage to come back and pick up your property.
The government has not managed to get rid of the gun, as it no doubt would like, but it is deneying you the right to use the property for which you have already paid. It seems to me that this is breaking another part of the constitution.
Why couldn't the government apply this tactic to any other property that you own for as long as it wants as a tactic to deprive you of just compensation for property that was in reality seized?
Cannot this principle be seized upon by evil men and expanded to suit their purposes?
 
Apparently, from what I have read, the law was written in such a way that if the system is down an FFL can release the firearm without the check. In the case of last weekend, there was no reason other than abject fear of the BATF that kept any of the FFLs in the nation from releasing a firearm.

It has been speculated that if an FFL were to take this perfectly lawful action, they would be hounded to extinction by the BATF. No one out there wants to find out if this is fact.

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Gun Control: The proposition that a woman found dead in an alley, raped and strangled with her own panty hose, is more acceptable than allowing that same woman to defend herself with a firearm.
 
Quote:

It has been speculated that if an FFL were to take this perfectly lawful action, they would be hounded to extinction by the BATF.


No one out there wants to find out if this is fact.

And here is why!


Loss of Federal Firearms License, Confiscation of existing inventory, jail time and stiff fines, lawyers bills, court costs,
loss of income and loss of livilyhood and you still have to pay the rent on the gun shop building for another 9 years until the 10 year lease expires.

No sane FFL dealer would realease a firearm to a customer with odds like these
to contend with.

One would fair much better refusing to pay ones income tax because the IRS has far less power than the BATF.

LET FREEDOM THUNK.... because the BELL is far too MUFFLED now to RING and the bell is cracked to boot!

http://www.trteam.com/

[This message has been edited by ernest2 (edited May 20, 2000).]
 
Quote "One would fair much better refusing to pay ones income tax because the IRS has far less power than the BATF."

I don't know about this.... IRS can and does all the time, without any court order or any other finding of fact (other than their say so), attach bank accounts (they send a notice to the bank, who promply takes all funds in the account up to the amount of the notice or all funds in the account and sends them to the IRS), file liens on all real and personal property (with subsequent fire sale), haul one into court with criminal charges of fraud and tax evasion with penities ranging up to 20+ years. If you get on the bad side of an IRS agent, I can guarantee you that they can make life misserable for you.

Remember it was the IRS not the FBI who brought down most of the gansters in the 20's & 30's, inculding Al Capone.



------------------
Richard

The debate is not about guns,
but rather who has the ultimate power to rule,
the People or Government.
RKBA!
 
If the Feds can shut NICS down for a few days, what would prevent them from shutting it down for a few weeks? Months?

------------------
"Pathfinders Light the Way!"
 
Thanks for all of those that did reply.

Phooey on those that didn't reply. I feel this is a very serious topic, and that so many would just glance over it without enough consideration to offer a reply is the reason these immoral laws are being drawn against us.

The 2nd amendment means nothing to those in office. This lastest is proof positive. There simply isn't any brighter bigger more colorfull handwriting on the wall. Agreed I don't know all the state laws, but it appears to me that 100% of nonregistered (nonCCW holders) were denied the right to bear the arm they already own and posses.

This is situation similar to waiting periods. But this has the added benefit of being an unknown peroid to wait. A waiting peroid that can be created for ALL Americans with the simple action of a mechanical failure or a lone person at an office pulling one cable.

You have the right to keep and bearm arms, but only if the NICS computer is up and operating.

Why are there background checks anyway? Are we not inocent until provin guilty? I don't mind that firearm purchases be restricted to minors, but thats the only one.
Why do we let the goverment officials release KNOWN CRIMINALS back into society if they present a likely future problem to society. Why then, if criminals were to be hanged or detained for life in prison, there would be no criminals to have to filter out with the background checks. If a criminal has been reabilitated and released by the goverment, does he no longer have the protection of the Constitution to keep our government from infringing upon his Creator given rights? Why does the government take away just the one protected right?

Why is it that no one seems to mind the intrustion of thier privacy and their right to bears arms is controlled by a government computer system.

It wasn't 1984, it was 2000, and Ray Bradbury was only off by 6 years. (Its been a while since I read it, it "was" Mr. Bradbury was it not?)

Sprig
 
Sprig-

1984 was written by George Orwell..

I ran into the NICS "wall" on Friday, May 12.. Put down hard-earned plastic on a Kimber Classic Custom.. I didn't get to take her home until Monday!! It seemed just a little too convenient that this happened on the same weekend as the Miguided Mommies.. BIG BROTHER IS WATCHING YOU Pathetic..

-R

[This message has been edited by robear (edited May 21, 2000).]
 
Here's what chaps my hide about this whole NICS shutdown- the LAW says an FFL can complete the sale after 3 days if no results from NICS, but the blankety-blank, lowdown, scum suckin', power grabbin', authority misusin', mean, mistreatin', ankle-bitin'...(ad infinitum, ad nauseum :D)... cretins at BATF said any FFL dealer who does so will be prosecuted. What in the name of J.P. Sauer makes them think they have the power to prosecute a non-crime!!?!?!??!?!?!!?!? :mad: :confused:

Perhaps Agent Lillyliver or whatever your name is that's probably lurking and spying on us right now would care to develop a backbone and register and give us an answer to that? Yes, I'm talking to YOU, Troll-boy.

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Only in America, we're slaves to be free/Only in America, we kill the unborn, to make ends meet/Only in America, sexuality is democracy/Only in America, we stamp our god "In God we trust"

What is right or wrong?
I don't know who to believe in
My soul sings a different song, in America

If it isna Scottish, it's CRAP! RKBA!
 
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