Thank Q

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Dennis

Staff Emeritus
Some time ago, Q came out of the closet! She stated, “Well, as long as the subject
has been brought up, ... I admit it!! I'm a liberal! ...”

That irritated me! Everybody knows Liberals are wrong, wrong, wrong!

Then she confused me:
-- Her Daddy instilled in her a certain hatred for gun control at the age of six;
-- She owns three guns, has ten total in the house;
-- She has helped Cornered Rat teach THIRTY people to shoot this year; and
-- She is active in supporting RKBA legislation, especially CCW efforts.

That didn’t sound like a Liberal to me....

Then she shamed me:
“It kinda sucks to be cruising around with people that you genuinely like and then
they say something that makes you wonder if they really want your support or not.”

I pondered for a while, trying to determine how many RKBA supporters I have
offended because they have “stupid” views on religion, abortion, vehicles, etc.,
etc....

It finally dawned on me. Concentrating on our differences decreases our
effectiveness as a group. I must concentrate on the ONE, SINGLE issue that most
severely impacts our liberty and freedom!

So, I have to make some changes. I will try to remember my most important goals
and not be overly distracted by other arguments (however, important and valid)
until liberty and freedom again are assured in America:
- Liberal v. Conservative: In each group there are folks against gun control.
They’re on MY side. I won’t offend them and weaken our RKBA efforts.
- Jeff Cooper, Massad Ayoob, Fackler, Sanow, Hollywood/TV personalities, etc.: Do
they support RKBA? If so, they’re on my side. The finer points we can work out
later.
- Abortion: upon whim, total ban, anywhere in between. Not for me to decide
what is right for you. You stay away from MY family and I’ll stay away from yours.
- Religion: Atheist, Right Wing Religious Fanatic, anywhere in between. Not right
now. I’m busy supporting your right to HAVE beliefs.
- Foreign or domestic cars or trucks - I don’t care just now.
- Jane Fonda? We’ll address her treason later. If she shoots on her ranch, get her
to support OUR RKBA. (You have NO idea how hard that one is....)
- Revolver v. Semi-auto? Smile! Become good with either or both.
- Drugs: Don’t dilute the RKBA effort.
- Veterans Benefits: I’ll wait. They can’t take much more away....
- Equality: Age, gender, race, ethnic group, religion, etc. will have to wait.
--- We are all “equally under the gun”.
- Sexuality: If we each keep our proclivities to ourselves, who cares what others
do among consenting adults?
- LEOs v. “civilians”: If you favor of gun control, you are my opponent. If you are
a true American, we’re on the RKBA side.
- Civility: Good stuff. An armed society is a polite society. Let’s get after it!

Do I have opinions on these subjects? Bet on it! But the time has come to set my
opinions aside for the moment. If we lose the Second Amendment, we quickly will
lose ALL our rights and our arguments on the above subjects become irrelevant.
The government will make virtually all our decisions “for us”. I have become a
“one-issue” voter. RKBA will be my first consideration. Period.

We can have fun “cussin’ & discussin’” these things among ourselves. But our goal
must be unity not divisiveness.

To Q:
I can not apologize to every potential RKBA supporter I have driven off. But I can
apologize to you:

If I have said anything, anything at all, that made you feel ill at ease supporting our
Right to Keep and Bear Arms, I am sorry. I deeply regret the myopic mind-set that
offended those who are in agreement on the single, most important political
position of our day.
I want your support. The “movement” needs your support.
On other subjects: if we disagree, let us agree to disagree agreeably - at least until
we absolutely secure the rights which others would reduce to privileges or simply
deny to us.
Rest assured that if it is left up to me, you always will “have a place to wallow when
the liberal-bashing gets a little too thick.”

And, yes, you can bring your Russian Rodent friend. :)

Respectfully,
Dennis
 
Yes!

Terrific. I guess many of my beliefs could be considered liberal, as well. I'm into this whole "new age" type meditation and such. I think drugs should be legalized, I don't believe I support the draft, I believe almost nothing should be censored (by the government), I'm a Buddhist...well, you guys get the picture.

I believe also- that every American should have the right to self-determination. They should have the freedom to defend their persons, property, and any other innocent parties by any means available. They should be free to do any thing that does not directly infringe on the rights of another. They should not be dominated and oppressed by power-hungry regimes that profess to hold our good in mind. I am not the enemy. I respect-and will indeed fight for- the right of any other to follow whatever nonviolent practices they hold dear, even if they are diametrically opposed to my own beliefs.
 
Eloquent and heartfelt indeed Dennis. You have my respect and admiration.

Wanna know why the anti-gunners are so successful? They are UNITED in their cause. We fractionalize and nit-pick..."Hmmm, if you don't believe every single thing I believe, then hell with you".....how many cultures have the parable "divide and conquer or united we stand,divded we fall"? Well, kids we are getting ripped up 8 ways from Sunday because of this.

What is the other term for the 2nd Amendment?
THE KEYSTONE AMENDMENT!!! Without it the others will fall.

I am a 32 yr old single parent...Sicilian-American lapsed Catholic, PhD biochemist, farmer, business person, fiercely strong willed and independent, to the right of Attila the Hun, solitary and this issue is the one issue that I feel so strongly about that I am "joining" a group. I also possess 2 X chromosomes thru roll of the genetic dice. Feminist? Nah, I prefer the term "free-willed human being"...I don't ask men to give me a break...I take them; likewise I don't ask women for support, I don't need it.

Shag your petty differences and sensitivities, and grow up! We are adults.
We have absolutely nothing without a strong 2nd Amendment.....all else is merely an illusion.

------------------
"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes"
 
Excellent, Dennis, simply excellent. Spectre and DC, too. I really wish we could do this in real time, face to face, where we could have a ton of fun driving each other crazy as we agreeably disagree, and maybe learn a few things in the process. Nice pitcher of ale, a bottle of '89 Stag's Leap cabernet for the lady (if I may presume), appropriate snacks, nice fire, good company, good conversation. Has some appeal.

But dude, you're spot on. It's what we have in common that's important. Freedom is a wonderful thing, be liberal or conservative or whatever, but listen some and then think it thru and then think it thru some more. A little tolerance and reflection serves us all well as we seek to grow (dang, didn't mean to sound that mushy). We need both poles to maintain the dialectic. Thesis, antithesis, synthesis.

Anyway, I'm quite glad I found this place and have had the opportunity to make your acquaintence (all y'all TFLers)
 
I hope this is the turning point for the members of TFL. For make no mistake about it, our enemies are united. We see groups in government complain bitterly of partisanship and then firmly banding together in the most partisan fashion to achieve their goals. I see HCI (and others) advancing their agenda with no apparent internal conflicts. And now I see hope of the same unity forming right here.

It is time to force our elected representatives to stand and deliver for our Constitution. It is time to put down our differences and rally together for our common good. Is this not the spirit that gave us our Constitution? Was a tax on tea more important than our RKBA?

I have read that gun sales have increased due to Y2K and other factors. If gun ownership is higher, why doesn’t our government respond by acknowledging our RKBA? Because we do not act as a “voting block”. Votes and power are the only things politicians understand.

I’m sorry that this is so long, but I too have been frustrated. If only everyone from TFL, Gunforums, rec.guns, NRA, GOA, JPFO and other groups would combine their efforts toward one common goal, at one time, I believe that our enemies could be set back and our rights secured and possibly returned to us. But note: our enemies will only be set back, they will not be defeated. We must adopt the same attitude to preserve our rights and our Constitution for our future citizens and ourselves.

I wish to thank all of you for tolerating my ranting on this issue.

I wish to thank all of you for just being here.
 
Dennis:

Very, very cool. Thanks!

It might be fair to note that even though I may get feisty at times, ( ;)) I have never felt offended by anything anyone has said to me here. I really like this forum... best gun board I've ever seen, and the only one I've ever posted to.

DC: You're a woman?? Cool.

=Q=

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"Oh, grow up, 007."
 
And though they had been lost in the wilderness many years and their enemies had divided their number, they had hope. And he spake unto them and said "Let there be a Firearms Owners Unification Project, and let it join us together, the rich and the poor, the liberal and the conservative, the shotgunner and the pistolero". And all manner of gun owners came together and did speak with one voice. And the NRA and GOA and all of the previously divided and impotent organizations saw that it was good. And they clambered to be the one to aid these brave gun owners in their noble endeavor. And so did the gun makers for they were sore afraid of the pending civil lawsuits. And their number did grow until they were a mighty force to be reckoned with in the halls of justice. And, in the end, they knew they would prevail for they were right.

If not us, who? If not now, when? We have the way - the time is now.

Anyone who would give up one minute of freedom for a lifetime of safety - deserves neither.

Mikey
 
Q, and any others who may have taken offense, I'll add my 'mea culpa' as well. While I may have debated you with spirit, as a libertarian and a human being, my first recognition is for the freedom of others.

I've always liked that line ... how'd it go? I may disagree with what you say, but I'll fight to the death for your right to say it. Regards from AZ.
 
Mike,

I think me and DC will just sit over here with the Cuevro God er Gold, thank you ;)

Let's get with it folks. One thing. We are preaching to the choir here, on the other forums and lists, in the membership of the gun organizations and with the gun manufacturers. There might be soprano, tenor, bass,and baritone voices in the choir but it's the choir. The choir is maybe, what? 5 million strong? Brothers and sisters, the congregation is 70 to 80 million strong. At least. It is time to preach to the congregation. The guy next door that owns a pistol or two but rarely shoots. The woman that inherited her dad's shotgun. The family that only owns firearms to hunt. Think of all the firearms owners you know who are not involved in this struggle at all. They belong to no pro-gun organizations. They don't call or write their state or federal legislators. They rarely do anything to defend the Second Amendment...except to own a firearm. These are also the people targeted at HCI's website as well as by other HCI propaganda campaigns. Go there and look for yourself...you are more likely to be killed by a family member etc.

Why are they targeted instead of the more politically activated groups of firearms owners?

They are a sleeping giant.

They are HCI's greatest fear.

What is possible with that giant aroused?

We may be five million. We may be less. But we are still millions. Even if we were not but two million-we all know 10 or fifteen shooters, hunters, or owners who are not active. If we each could motivate five to speak together-that would be 10 million people. They complain about the power of the gun lobby now? We could show them power.

And our potential is greater. Let's act. To hell with the arguing, let's start persuading the congregation.
 
Well, before we get too touchy-feely over this thread, I'll cast a few words for thought.

I agree that freedom-loving people should support those that support our Second Ammendment, but IMO that one issue alone cannot be the ONLY factor in deciding whom to back. I have narrowed my "critical" issues down to three things:

1. RKBA
2. Abortion
3. My property (including MY money)

IMO, if you disagree with my views on any of the above issues, you are UNFIT to hold positions of power over me.

When it comes to the RKBA, there's not a lot to say here. I'm no different than you guys (and gals) on this issue. 'Nuff said.

On abortion - I cannot and will not support gun rights lovers that also support a woman's choice to kill her unborn child. As a Christian, I believe that that child is concieved of God, not simply a mass of tissue to be destroyed at will. I support a woman's right to do anything she wants to do - TO HERSELF! I do not support her "right" to take an innocent life.

Now, listen to me. I don't want a single member to chime in about this being an inappropriate forum to discuss these views. Don't tell me to take it offline or to discuss it privately in e-mail. These issues are already being discussed in this very thread. Dennis was freely able to state his views on this subject - (Abortion: upon whim, total ban, anywhere in between. Not for me to decide what is right for you. You stay away from MY family and I’ll stay away from yours.) Not one other person who posted before me told him to stop discussing issues other than firearms. If the moderators want to limit discussion to firearms only, then that's just fine by me. Just apply the rules uniformly.

As for my property, well... The government DOES NOT know better than I do how to use my property or spend my money. If you think so, then IMO you're not to be trusted with positions of power and influence. Plain, simple.

Other issues, while also important in my eyes, can and do take a back seat to these three.

I apologize for the confrontational tone of this post, however I've seen a few disturbing things recently on TFL. One member will slip his/her viewpoints into a post, then tell others that hold opposite views that TFL is not an appropriate site in which to discuss these matters. If members want to keep the discussion on firearms, then stick to firearms. Otherwise, let all POV's be heard.



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Kelly

Deo Vindice


[This message has been edited by Senator (edited March 07, 1999).]
 
Putting aside personal differences to reach a common goal? What a radical idea! Its only what every sucessful movement in human history has done. So why did it take so long for us to see the light?
 
Grayfox,
We haven't yet seen the light.

Senator,
How about if I just say,
1. List those other subjects.
2. I would rather not discuss these subjects until we secure our RKBA.
3. I am leaving your opinions up to you.

Now, would that get my idea across to you?

I would very much like to see you with us in the RKBA arena. But please, do not try to deduce my views on abortion or any of the other listed subjects. (With the possible exception of Jane Fonda!) You're way off base, buddy.

Now let's secure the power to disagree with our government, OK?
 
With all due respect, Dennis, I don't have to "deduce" anything about your views on abortion. You stated them pretty clearly when you said, "Not for me to decide what is right for you." That means that no matter what your personal views are, you're willing to turn a blind eye to the infanticide going on around you. If that's what you feel you have to do, then by all means do it. I, however, will not do that. I would no sooner vote for a pro-abortion candidate - no matter what his/her views were on ANY other issue - than I would vote for a candidate that championed a parent's right to kill their 6 year-old simply because it wasn't "convenient" to have a kid around anymore.

As for me being with you in the RKBA arena, I think my lowly grass-roots credentials stand for themselves.

As well as being an NRA member, I'm a frequent writer to our local anti-gun newspaper, not only letters to the editor, but with published (and paid! :)) RKBA articles on the viewpoint page. I write and call my legislators. I press the RKBA cause whenever I get a chance. (How do you think I got the nickname Senator? ;)) I've received my NRA Instructor's certification in the Basic Firearm Training discipline. I once invited a self-described "liberal wienie" talk radio host to a day of fun at the local firing range. We had a whole afternoon of instruction, discussion, and shooting. He went on-air the following Monday and told listeners in several states (it's a 50,000 watt station) about the great time that he'd had. He was not completely turned, but according to him he had "seen the other side of the issue." I take friends and co-workers shooting - especially those that have never shot before. I'll even throw my hat (and check) into the ring for the Firearms Owners Unification Project. I own 9 firearms, and two safes in which to keep them. And most importantly - I VOTE pro-RKBA!

I'd say that I've "seen the light" as brightly as anyone here.


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Kelly

Deo Vindice
 
Senator-
Whoah, there guy. Let me make a few points here.
-I think you've made a great point. Unfortunately, I think your premise is faulty.
-Dennis post was not about abortion...it mentioned it in passing. I didn't even take special note of it until you objected. Your post is quite a different matter.
-TFL is, in the end, a proprietary site. While it is offered as a public service, it is neither communally run nor owned. Therefore, you'll have to face the fact that we do hold authority over the discussions here.
-Though we make every effort to to allow great latitude in those discussions, our occasional intervention is a fact of life on this site.
-I have no interest in seeing a discussion *dedicated* to abortion on this site. However, your comments will not be edited out. We respect your right to speak out on your personal views.
-I still support Dennis' view that we need to come together on the issues that are most urgent, regardless of our differences. DC has pointed out elsewhere that little is on the horizon regarding abortion action. Our 2nd Ammendmet rights stand on the edge of the abyss, however. Therefore, I really couldn't care for the moment what your abortion stand is. (Note, I haven't indicated my own position on the subject).

Finally, while I'm not angry about it, I do take exception to the inference that there is a subtle but hidden agenda on this Board. There is none. If you'd like to email the examples, I pledge to look into it and report back.
Rich
 
Rich -

I never said that Dennis' post was about abortion. IMHO, his post was about what issue he considers critical when deciding in whom to trust with positions of power and influence over us. SO WAS MY POST! The only difference was that I have three critical issues, not just one. I'll modify my original post to make it clear that these are MY opinions.

As for implying that TFL has a hidden agenda, that was NOT my intention. There have, however, been instances where other MEMBERS have been able to give their personal beliefs, while telling others to take further discussions of the same subjects offline. I've e-mailed Rich on this matter. I am truly sorry for implying that TFL was culpable in this.

I understand that TFL is a proprietary site. Do whatever you feel you have to do. All I ask is that whatever rules you choose to have, you enforce them equally. That's not too much to ask.

My posts weren't "*dedicated* to abortion". They were dedicated to the three things that I look for in choosing political candidates - including the RKBA.

Rich stated, "I still support Dennis' view that we need to come together on the issues that are most urgent, regardless of our differences. DC has pointed out elsewhere that little is on the horizon regarding abortion action. Our 2nd Amendment rights stand on the edge of the abyss, however. Therefore, I really couldn't care for the moment what your abortion stand is." I too support Dennis' view that we need to come together. Where I disagree is on the "regardless of our differences" part. My personal belief about the abortion issue is not one that I can simply cast aside to further other causes - no matter how worthy. There might not be anything on the horizon where abortion is concerned, but that doesn't mean that I should ignore the issue. Quite the contrary - until the pro-life movement follows the leads of the anti-gun movement, we'll never have "anything on the horizon." The anti's have been so successful due to their firm grassroots work. They've worked at the little things - electing anti's at lower levels of government, enacting seemingly small and relatively insignificant pieces of legislation (waiting periods, gun locks, one-gun-a-month laws, etc...) with the ultimate goal of outlawing ALL private firearms ownership in this country. The pro-life movement needs to do the exact same thing IMO. We cannot afford to just drop that issue. We must begin taking those seemingly small steps RIGHT NOW. There's years of work to do before there will be something "on the horizon".



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Kelly

Deo Vindice
 
Senator:

Please don't get upset over these comments, but can't you see that this attitude is exactly why we are loosing the battle to maintain our freedoms? Those in political power divide us up into little waring groups and then slice us up one group at a time. If we can not convice you, that we have to stand together on this one issue, then how can we convice the other 70 million gun owners?

We must put all of our other concerns to the side. Why am I conviced of this? It is due to the rulings now made in our courts. As far as our court system is concerned we have already lost our right to keep and bear arms. Here is part of the judges opinion in the 1996 case of Hickman vs. Block for the 9th circuit court of appeals. "The question presented at the threshold of Hickman's appeal is whether the Second Amendment confers upon individual citizens standing to enforce the right to keep and bear arms. We follow our sister circuits in holding that the Second Amendment is a right held by the states, and does not protect the possession of a weapon by a private citizen."

I respectfully request that you consider what is more important to you at this time. Consider how you are going to defend your other values or freedoms when the Government has a monolopy on power.

In the past my one overriding issue was taxes. No longer. It will have to take a back seat until this issue of RKBA is resolved.

Can we not say to ourselves and to each other that we are going to put all other issues to the side for a couple of years until we get this mess taken care of? If we can not do that then I fear that all is lost.

Our founders were right... "United we Stand"... seperately we fall....

Thanks for listen to my ravings.

Richard
 
Kelly,

We've done this already, dude. It wasn't fun the first time. What I said the last time still goes. You will have a hard time defending anything without the means. Think it through, before proclaiming how you love the right to life (which love I share, of course), so will not support the means to defend it if all your criterion are not met.
 
Spectre, Bookkie - I know exactly where you guys are coming from. Let me attempt to let you know exactly where I'm coming from.

I feel sure that there is not one single TFL member that would vote for a candidate that was pro-RKBA and championed a mother's right to kill her 6 month old child for any reason - convenience, poverty, mother's poor health, whatever. Every single member here would consider that murder and WOULD NOT SUPPORT IT.

My personal belief is that there is NO DIFFERENCE between that 6 month-old BORN child, and a 6 month-old UNBORN child. That being the case, how could anybody here expect me to abandon that position. I cannot and will not do it.

Having said that, I'll tell you what I WILL do. I'll reconsider my stance as it relates to a political candidates views on property rights. Deal?

BTW - if any of my fellow forumites (members) feel the need to say degrading, threatening, inflamatory things about me concerning my views, please do NOT send an e-mail to me. Please say what you have to say here for all to see what kind of person you really are - otherwise, don't waste your breath. :(


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Kelly

Deo Vindice
 
Senator-
Sigh. I thought I'd resolved this with you by email. It's one thing to state a position on the abortion issue...pro or anti. It's another to use this site to explain why abortion is murder. This is not a place to discuss abortion issues.

This thread is closed. And I'll thank our Members not to use our site, as Senator requests, to debate the abortion issues.

Rich Lucibella
 
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