TFL - a Libertarian Board?

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D

Dennis

Staff Emeritus
All,
This seems to be a recurring theme; therefore it must be time, once again, to assure everyone that my views are mine - not the Staff’s.

[OFFICIAL]
We have approximately twenty-five people on Staff at TFL. I would assume,
given the nature of TFL, most Staff members believe in and support the
Constitution and Bill of Rights.

However, the TFL Staff is made up of individuals. There are some vast
differences among the Staff as to the proper role of government (at ALL
levels) and the proper methods and means of implementing and enforcing
those roles.

The one and only commonality among the Staff is the desire to preserve
and/or regain our Right to Keep and Bear Arms.

When ANY member of TFL presents personal opinions and views, they are
just that - personal.

Therefore, The Firing Line is NOT a Libertarian operated board. Nor is it a
board operated by Republicans, Democrats, or by those of any political
party.
[/OFFICIAL]
-----

Staff members, just like other TFL members, have the intelligence, wit, and
all other intellectual abilities to develop, maintain, and defend their own
views. Therefore, the political views I express are mine - not necessarily
those of any other member of the TFL Staff.

Should the day come I am not permitted to post civil opinions related to
firearms and/or civil rights because I am on Staff, then I will no longer be on
Staff.

I’ve noticed that some folks state something to the effect that only their
viewpoint is makes sense and anyone who disagrees is intellectually deficient,
therefore the subject should be closed.

Nope.

So long as the subject is relevant to TFL and presented in a civil manner, it’s
fair game.

Debate facts and opinions. Do not attack the individual.

If the subject gives you heartburn, skip the thread. I dare say there’s more
to read on TFL than any one person can read. Choose your threads, and
therefore your subjects, wisely.

If you are so angry you can not address a subject without attacking a person
(or persons), take it to e-mail.

Oh, and please note that posting a private e-mail publicly is usually
considered to be a sign of poor taste and untrustworthiness.

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Either you believe in the Second Amendment or you don't.
Stick it to 'em! RKBA!

[This message has been edited by Dennis (edited July 09, 2000).]
 
Dennis,

I wasn't the one who said that this forum was dominated by Libertarians, but I tend to agree with it, at least as far as the staff is concerned. I have had several people e-mail and tell me they will not participate here anymore for that reason and because of all of the NRA bashing.

In my opinion, the administrators and moderators of this forum should stay OUT of these types of very devisive discussions completely! Just like a referee in a football game, you should observe the game/debate and only butt in when there is an infraction of the rules! How would you feel if you were playing football and the referee stuck his foot out and tripped one of the guys on your team??? I can tell you first hand that it is very infuriating and counterproductive to keeping peace here on TFL!

I think it would be fine for the admins/mods to participate all they want on subjects that don't drive such a wedge between the members, but by jumping into this Libertarian/Republican debate you are only throwing fuel on the fire.

I say this not to gain favor in the current debate, but as someone who wants the fighting to end as well.


Sincerely,
Joe

NRA Joe's Second Amendment Discussion Forum

[This message has been edited by nralife (edited July 10, 2000).]
 
Dittos what nralife said. That is the main reason I spend my time at boards other than the firing line. This rhetoric is simply too hostile. Moderators and administrators should take a passive role in these heated arguments. Otherwise it seems like the board is trying to "recruit" one way or the other.
 
Yes, let's all be real PC and unionist...management can't say a word...afterall management are profiteers, exploiters....no matter that they provide a venue, a job or whatever...they are exploiters, who knows whats up their sleeve. Socialists and Democrats also require 100% agreement, and have little tolerance for alternatives.

Hell, we should renounce our citizenship.

Lissen up kids, this country is made of strong opinions....you can't handle a dissenter to yours, then go back to the minor leagues, with the little boys and girls.

I see no official links to any political party endorsed by TFL, but of course, I'm management and its my job to exploit you, so ya never know.



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"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes" RKBA!
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by nralife:
Dennis,


In my opinion, the administrators and moderators of this forum should stay OUT of these types of very decisive discussions completely! Just like a referee in a football game, you should observe the game/debate and only butt in when there is an infraction of the rules! How would you feel if you were playing football and the referee stuck his foot out and tripped one of the guys on your team??? [/quote]

Ah, C'mon... Playing referee all the time can get pretty unsatisfying, especially if a "referee/player" has something worthwhile to add. I will continue to try to convince these Libertarian foo... people of the error of their ways, but I do not begrudge them their opportunities to persuade this foo.. person of my errors. Although I discarded my rose-colored glasses years ago...



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Scott

When A annoys or injures B on the pretext of saving or improving X, A is a scoundrel. - H. L. Mencken
 
DC,

I assume that I am one of the ones you are talking to. I CAN play in the big leagues and hit with the best of them. It is YOUR moderators and administrators telling us to cool our jets for the sake of the TFL. I give my opinion and I am compared to little kiddies unable to play with grownups. I see your words as an invitation to take the gloves back off and to duke it out at will. I appreciate that, for I am not the wimp you picture me to be.

Let the games begin!!!!!!

A vote for Browne is a vote for Al Gore!!!!

I think that if Al Gore gets elected because of the people voting Libertarian, that those modern day Benedict Arnolds who voted for Browne should be considered traitors and should be handled accordingly after the election!!!! (tongue firmly in cheek)

[This message has been edited by nralife (edited July 10, 2000).]
 
Very interesting, Joe...

You've got the collectivist mindset down pat...lessee now, if someone who vote's their conscience, and that vote is Libertarian, then they are a traitor. However, by your implication, if they vote Democratic, they aren't are not a traitor, only Libertarians are.
So, your success hinges soley on lack of Libertarian votes, huh? Best you spend your time trying to get Democrats to change.

BTW, I was undecided , but you convinced me, you get the credit Joe....now I only hafta decide between Browne or Keyes. Ain't the big leagues fun? :)



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"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes" RKBA!
 
DC,

Actually, since Texas is going to be a lock for Bush, I was going to vote for Browne myself. But now it looks like I will have to vote for Bush whether I want to or not. We could always make a deal.... I'll vote for Brown or Keyes, if you vote for Bush. How about it? :)

Joe
 
While I have had the impression that this is a libertarian board, I have not been treated unfairly. My views regarding the moral issues are in contradiction to the views of a large number on TFL, including several (at least) of the moderators. I don't have any objection to the moderators joining in the discussion, even if they flame me. (I consider that folks flame when they have no substantive argument.) Let their views be put forth the same as mine. I'm willing to let them be wrong. To be honest I have expected to be banned from TFL because of my views and the fact that I am not timid about putting them forth. However, I never intend to make a personal, attack on the character of anyone on the forum. Very respectfully, Jerry

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Ecclesiastes 12:13  ¶Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
14  For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.
 
Dennis, there was some Roman General of whom it was said, "He made a desert, and called it peace..."
Likewise, a lack of dissention is usually a hallmark of totalitarian governments ( or other entities ).
People sometimes forget that America was founded on an argument--what I am trying to say is that dissention is a good an healthy thing for all concerned.
Frankly, I love "gridlock" in Washington--people also seem to forget that every time a law or regulation is passed to "do something about something" a little more freedom is lost or set aside.
Anyway, I think we all need more argument, dissent, and disagreement--not less. While the last 7 1/2 sorry years of Beelzebubba have severely tried my faith in the worthiness of the American people, I do still think that most people, given enough information and facts, can sort thru the lies and distortions and get to the truth.
 
As has been said before, and not just on this forum: Liberals own the networks, conservatives own talk radio, and libertarians own the Internet.

That's of course a stereotype, but it does have some basis in truth. People who are interested in computers and electronic communication apparently also tend to be individualistic and self-reliant, and lots of those people find libertarianism an appealing philosophy.

But while there are lots of libertarians on the Internet generally and on TFL in specific, I don't agree that it's accurate to call TFL a libertarian (or Libertarian) board. Take another look at the political threads. We're very short on members espousing modern-day liberalism, but there are clearly many members here who welcome (and espouse) government intrusion into certain areas of citizen's private lives. Conservatives and libertarians have many areas of disagreement -- we just happen to agree about RKBA.
 
Guys, gals, lissen up!

The enemy loves it when we squabble amongst ourselves. Divide and conquer, they chortle.

I'm a Libertarian. Any one who thinks TFL is a "Libertarian Board" has not read the entire Libertarian platform. True, the Libertarian position on RKBA ( http://www.lp.org/issues/gun-rights.html ) is likely to match up with the average TFL participant. I'll bet the L-Party platform has other planks that some TFLers would not swupport. Such is politics. Such is life.

There is room here, I think, for all sorts of opinions. It would be a pretty boring Board if everyone thought the same way about everything. Even anti-RKBA people are welcome as long as they want to have polite and reasoned discussions instead of screaming propaganda and insults.

As for the moderators and admins, they're people like us and I think it would be shameful to keep them from participating in any discussion. As for the exercise of their admin powers, that's governed by the published rules, and it's only when they use that admin power that they speak for the Board and not themselves. We can appeal to the Webmaster if we have issues about specific actions.

As for those who would quit using TFL because they don't like people disagreeing with them, don't let the screen door hit you in the tochis. Anyone who wants a mutual back-slapping society can go start their own. I'll stay here, where honorable citizens can disagree and still observe the civilities of debate.
 
I for one, feel that the moderators should have every right to participate on the boards. Come on folks, they are just people with opinions, no different than TFL members. Just because they are moderators doesn't make their opinions any more, or any less important than others.

If Dennis wishes to espouse Libertarian ideals, and vote for Browne, or any other third party candidate, more power to him. If others believe that the Republican or Democrat Party is the Party that better protects RKBA, then more power to them.

Most of us are "pro-gun, pro-defense, pro-Constitution" advocates, therefore we are passionate about our convictions, views, and freedoms. This is what sets us apart from the average "take the semis, just leave my shotgun alone" type gun owner.

I've had many heated disagreements with members on this board, but I would still trust most here with my back, and would gladly watch theirs. Our Founding Fathers disagreed on a lot of things, but when the SHTF, they came together on the ultimate issue. Just because we disagree, doesn't mean we can't get together at the end of the day, and down a Shiner or two.
 
It seems to me that a lot of RKBA folks subscribe to many of the principles of the Libertarian Party, although that in no way makes them Libertarians. From my standpoint, it's nice to see a bunch of young folks agreeing with the principles I've always lived by. What the heck, I can say that about many Republicans and some Democrats. :), :)

As a Moderator, my primary concern is simply that of striving for discussion of ideas, not personalities or IQs. Courtesy and politeness are among the signs of maturity, and the fact that one's opinions are strong is beside the point.

I have strong opinions. I have a temper like the back-blast of a rocket launcher. I maintain control by asking myself, "Would I say that to my grandmother?" before I hit that "Do It!" button to post my ever-so-phantasmagoricaly wondrous thoughts.

"Think twice; post once." I think I've read that, somewhere...

:), Art

[This message has been edited by Art Eatman (edited July 10, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Art Eatman (edited July 10, 2000).]
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>

Originally posted by nralife:

Dennis,
In my opinion, the administrators and moderators of this forum should stay OUT of these types of very decisive discussions completely! Just like a referee in a football game, you should observe the game/debate and only butt in when there is an infraction of the rules! How would you feel if you were playing football and the referee stuck his foot out and tripped one of the guys on your team??? [/quote]

If I understand correctly, moderators are first members who are invited by Rich and/or the rest of the Staff to become moderators. They are not paid and becoming a moderator shouldn't force them to renounce their membership and their opinions. Just because a moderator disagrees with something someone else says in a post doesn't (to me, anyway) mean they are saying, "I am god of the board and what I say is right." They are just expressing their opinions and I see no reason why they shouldn't. If they weren't allowed to do so, why would they even want to be a moderator? Just to sit and read other people's posts and other people's opinions? That sounds pretty boring (and frustrating) to me.
As far as TFL being a "libertarian" board, that sounds like a bunch of cr@p to me, considering how people who post "vote Libertarian" threads, etc. are ususally bashed, called traitors, and asked, "Why don't you just vote for Gore?" Doesn't sound very Libertarian to me. It's been my observation that if a moderator closes a thread, it's usually because the arguments become too personal, rather than political and they need to be closed regarless of political opinions.

[This message has been edited by CindyH (edited July 10, 2000).]
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Art Eatman:
"Think twice; post once." I think I've read that, somewhere...

, Art

[This message has been edited by Art Eatman (edited July 10, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Art Eatman (edited July 10, 2000).]
[/quote]

Think twice, post 3 times? :D



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Scott

When A annoys or injures B on the pretext of saving or improving X, A is a scoundrel. - H. L. Mencken
 
I saw the 'libertarian board' comment on another thread, and was a little disappointed myself.

I'm also rather suprised to see the comment above that rhetoric on TFL is too 'hostile'. I've seen other boards on the 'net ... and, TFL is the most mature I've seen. Checked out the 'MS Magazine' boards lately? Some of those ladies know more four letter words than I do ... ;)

And regarding NRA members leaving, I'm a life member, as many others are here as well. I'll keep my opinion to myself about NRA members that feel compelled to leave instead of hearing the criticism. I'll simply say I'm disappointed.

I enjoy beating my libertarian 'drum' here, but I also enjoy the spirited debates we have. Just as all Republicans are not the same, neither are Libertarians / libertarians. Each of us occupies a unique niche on the political continuum. Participating on TFL has educated me greatly regarding the RKBA, helped me better understand the perspectives of others, and made me a better debater.

Haven't said it lately, but I am very thankful for TFL, and I greatly appreciate the efforts of Rich and everyone on staff. It is a labor of love for these folks ... and, it is a labor that helps all members become better proponents of the RKBA. Thank you.

Regards from AZ
 
Gosh, I guess I'm an offender here. Let's see: I attributed stupidity or dishonorability to someone's motives for a monotonous hammering at Bush despite earnest, well-reasoned arguments from many posters trying in good faith to explain how important it is to gun owners that Gore not be elected president. Evidently it's OK to bash folks who aren't here to defend themselves, such as Bush, but not OK to use strong language expressing umbrage at posters who are being asses.

I must confess now that I am not wearing a tie whilst sitting here composing this post. But my legs are crossed at the knee.

Mention also was made of the ungentlemanliness of posting "private" e-mail messages. In the event this was directed at me, I would point out that the e-mail message I posted last week was my response to one from an administrator here. I did not post the administrator's note. I send no e-mail notes to folks I don't know that I wouldn't feel comfortable posting on a public board.

It may surprise some here, including some administrators, that my political inclinations are distinctly libertarian. Note that I used a lower-case "l." Politics for me most definitely have no approximation to any religion. I am no ideologue. Ideologues bore the--excuse the expletive--living hell out of me. My fundamental beliefs are beholden to no organization or creed. I enjoy a spirited debate, but will not suffer fools for long (I hate the cliché'd ending "gladly"--I've never known anyone who suffers fools gladly).

There, my rant is done. Vote for Bush. Your conscience will forgive you--this time.

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Idiot, n. A member of a large and powerful tribe whose influence in human affairs has always been dominant and controlling. -- Ambrose Bierce
 
All,

When someone states his case calmly, I try to respond calmly. When
someone's argument is based upon intentional "inaccuracies", insults,
and innuendo, I feel little need to respond with "touchy, feely" political
correctness.

Therefore, when *any* viewpoint is called stupid, ignorant, etc., and when
*any* member snidely implies that another member is a lunatic, etc., then
such statements warrant blunt rebuttal.

If, by not voting for Bush, you believe I am playing into Gore’s hands, that’s an
opinion. We can agree to disagree agreeably.

But to say I *prefer* Gore is a lie.

If I withhold a vote from Bush, yes, it makes Bush one vote less competitive;
however, Gore does not get that vote therefore it is not a vote for Gore.
Bush is behind by only one vote - not two!

Therefore, that handy little jingle
is a lie, both intentional and blatant, presented not to dissuade or persuade
but to intimidate and aggravate.

When attention is called to Bush’s gun control agenda, the only reasonable
rebuttals I have heard are: 1) that Bush’s gun control proposals are not so
bad as Gore’s and 2) Bush is lying to gain votes. Regardless of Bush’s
motives, he proposes additional gun control. Therefore, to say that Bush is
pro-gun is a lie. He is less anti-gun (than Gore) and simply proposes a less
radical route to gun control.

I am against gun control. Therefore, it’s hard for me to vote for the lesser
evil again and again because someone considers each election to be “critical”
or “different”. This election is not unique - it is merely the next incremental
step toward tyranny as was each of the last ten (or more) Presidential
elections.
-----

To say that a TFL member must forfeit posting privileges or the right to voice
personal opinions upon joining the Staff (and taking on a great additional
workload) is a truly odd concept. I am humbled (and relieved) that many
members feel the same. I’ll skip that issue except for thanking you all for
your support.
-----

One last point.

If you truly feel Bush is the best chance America has to stop our slippery
slope slide into tyranny, then voting for Bush is the honest act of a patriot.
However, if I believe an acceptable alternative to Bush and Gore exists, for
me to vote for Bush would be the act of a cowardly traitor.

Same act. Different character.

If, in the future, I come to believe Bush is our best chance for America, I will
vote for Bush. However, at the moment I am not convinced that doing the
same thing we’ve always done will, in some incomprehensible manner,
provide different results. I choose to vote for Freedom and Liberty.

I will continue to try to bring the Republican Party out from under the
Democratic wing.
-----

Lastly, our debates frequently take on the tenor of combat. That’s a shame
because it’s not necessary.

- By discussing and debating with each other we learn more about the issues
and develop (and strengthen) our opinions. We become better informed.

- If adversity strengthens the character, then we truly are becoming
stronger. Cutting away the rhetoric, we improve our ability to reply calmly
and factually under fire. This has helped me in adversarial conversations
with the Brownshirts.

- Further, more of us are becoming increasingly politically active. We are
gaining more members and more support for our RKBA. If we lose some
“sunshine patriots” along the way, that is offset by gaining more hardcore
believers in Freedom and Liberty. I have “stepped up to the plate” both
privately and in public more often in the last two years than in the previous
eight years.

- If anti-freedom bystanders revel in our apparent fragmentation, they
underestimate our increasing resolve, vigor, and common support of our
Right to Keep and Bear Arms. Let them underestimate us to their political
peril.

- Most of all, I have the hope and belief that by discussing, debating, and
even by disagreeing, we are becoming increasingly united. As mentioned
above, I would feel secure with even my severest TFL critics backing me -
even though we’ve never met. I can’t say the same about my neighbors
whom I have known for years.

All in all, I find the “TFL experience” to be informative and rewarding. I hope
you also feel that TFL is,

“Simply the Finest Firearms Information Site on the Web”.


------------------
Either you believe in the Second Amendment or you don't.
Stick it to 'em! RKBA!
 
Just because you're a moderator/administrator doesn't mean you give up your 1st Amendment rights of speech and association. As long as the management doesn't try to control the dialogue, not a reason in the world why they shouldn't participate.
 
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