Texas Exile: anyone seen the billboards?

G

Gopher a 45

New member
Well, it looks like the Exile thing is already being twisted to another "turn in your neighbor" law, to a limited extent. I've seen the Texas Exile billboards, even down here on the coast, but the little phone number at the bottom to "report illegal guns" kind of rubbed me the wrong way. Don't get me wrong, I've got nothing against prosecuting a violent ex-con with a gun, etc. But it worries me that there's no mention of what "legal" is on the sign. Given most gungrabbing bedwetter's knowledge of guns, to them "illegal" might mean "something that I'm afraid of" and the perfectly legal AR-15 can look scary to those types. Does anyone know what sort of due process there is to act on the tips from the phone line and are they anonymous? I only ask because it's unavoidable that my neighbors have seen me carry cases to the range and they get a weird look which gives me the feeling it makes them nervous. It makes ME nervous because I think they might be wondering how much my guns would fetch at the local pawn shop. :( I haven't irritated any neighbors to the best of my knowledge, but it still gives me a strange feeling.
 
Hey there, I can only say give it a chance. I have not heard a complaint about Exile here, except for the way they put that big dark message over the entire side of a city bus, windows and all. It really seems to have helped us in Richmond, Virginia and thanks to the NRA for putting up a lot of the money for the ads. Now, if we could just get the city to stop their random roadblocks and car searches(I'm not kidding). John
 
We all cheer when real criminals are nabbed, no doubt. But just keep in mind that Project Exile will eventually be used against honest gun owners as well, since in the eyes of statists we too are criminals.

I believe Exile is the biggest sugar-coated poison pill to come along since CCW permits.
 
EXILE was started in Richmond, VA.. the original program was simply to prosecute 100% of the firearms crimes in the city. The program then went state-wide several years ago.

It has not lead to Connecticut like "turn your nieghbor in" actions... In fact, I don't know of one such case in the whole state. The program here has been used as a basis for the programs in CO, TX and a couple other states. The NRA is strongly behind the project, so is the LEAA.

So far, every state that has adopted "Project EXILE" has provisions for legal CCW. If a state like Ohio went to 100% prosecution, it would really up the ante for those who have chosen the "I'd rather be tried by 12 than carried by 6" way of life.

------------------
-Essayons
 
Jimpeel;

It is not a question of the exile system
possibly going bad. The exile system is
bad period.

ANYTIME the Government seeks to aborgate a citizens right to trial by jury AND jurist (when was the last time you heard that term?) by setting sentencing guidelines that WILL be followed with extreme prejudice, the constitution is taken down yet still another notch.

Project Exile is horrific.

Expect the bombing of the Reichstag any day now.
 
Last month a BATF agent and US Attorney approached our group (Arizona Firearms Safety Coalition) to do the fund raising (the feds can't do it) for billboards, PSAs, etc for Arizona Exile. It was our first, and so far, only meeting. At first I got all bubbly inside like our little group (composed of pro and antis) would be doing something positive.

Then they showed us a picture of a Texas bus with the words "Illegal guns get you five years in prison."

I told the two feds there that when I see that bus sign...I think of me. I added, and was joined in stereo by an NRA instructor sitting at the table, "There shouldn't be any such thing as an illegal gun."

"But there are," was the response from the US Atty.

I referred him to the 1982 US Senate Judicial Committtee Report that said that 75% of federal gun prosecutions were directed on non-violent mom & pops for technical violations. I asked him if Clinton's recent speech where he said, "The NRA wants us to enforce current gun laws, not pass new ones. Well, if they want us to enforce gun laws we are going to enforce ALL of them." I asked them if they would soon be knocking on my door because I had a pistol grip on my 1995 Argie FAL? The US Atty told me that they had to enforce the law.

I countered with, "It would be wise to prioritize, don't you think? If a city finds a rash of rapes, robberies and murders, it might be prudent to pull a few officers of the jay-walking detail."

Cops and prosecutors do it all the time.

Suffice to say, we can in no way control what kinds of cases are forwarded over to the Feds for prosecution. Look at Connecticut's turn in your neighor situtuation. Someone says you are a danger and you have guns. The cops come and take all your guns and find that one of them has the wrong receiver on it. Do they foward that to the BATF or maybe the BATF comes looking for it after they read about it in the news.

We have not control, other than to embarass them before Exile comes to a Gestapo post near you.

Rick
Skeptical of Project Gulag
 
Rick,

I admire your passion, but think about this:

Why should the term "illegal guns" make you think of yourself ??

Unless you have "illegal guns" you are not a target of EXILE.

How many times have a heard fellow gun owners utter "gee, if they would enforce the laws they have now....."
Well, here is a program to do just that very thing and we still can't get behind it.

I've got a conspiracy theory for you guys:

A group of people have their right to keep and bear arms threatened... steps are taken to aleviate that threat, but they are so used to playing the role of the oppressed victim that they kinda like it and look for any way to continue griping instead of supporting the steps to regain their freedom.

[This message has been edited by Rob (edited March 11, 2000).]
 
The way that Texas Exile was pitched to some friends of mine was this:

Texas will be divided up into sections. Each section will have a special prosecutor trained in Federal and State gun laws.

When the PD or SO snags a critter who commits a crime with a firearm, they have the option of passing the case, or part of the case, to this prosecutor.

For example, you get a felon who commits Murder/Rape/Robbery/Kidnapping against someone. It is currently unlawful for a felon to be in possession of a firearm.

He would be prosecuted for the Murder/Rape/Robbery/Kidnapping, and then face the prosecutor for Felon in Possession of a Firearm charge.

This is second-hand knowledge, so if anyone knows any different about Texas Exile, let me know.

LawDog
 
I don't think any sane person could disagree with putting a criminal in jail.

But, it does depend on what a criminal is - doesn't it?

And there's the rub for me.

I think a murder committed with a knife (hands, feet, stick, car) is just as henious as any committed with a firearm.

I've a real problem with "illegal gun." There's no such thing. Machine guns, destructive devices, any NFA device ... they are all legal IF you pay the tax & go through the hoops.

So, no such thing as an "illegal gun."

We have this discussion with (supposedly & no flames here) knowledgeable gun owners & can't agree.

Can you imagine the concepts of non-gun owners & the rabid antis?

Heard of a tale by a friend: He had another friend (non-shooter) come over to his house. The non-shooter friend saw 2X mags of .45ACP on the counter. "Are those armor-piercing" bullets? Cop-killers? (et puke)" & etc.

A fave lady of mine (CO MMM babe) tells all in her memo to not worry about the "star wars" weapon seen on a WSSF website ... "It's OK, it's only a reloading machine." & "Did you know that shooting is actually an Olympic sport?"

I've a CO CCW. In Denver, I can have my car confiscated because of their city ordinance re "guns in cars." Nada re if you have CCW or any other "affirmative defense." That the car confiscation hasn't happened "all that often" doesn't even play in my mind. That the law is on the books at all is a possibility of abuse.

A few of "us crazies" here in CO have called BATF/P-Exile #s (1-800-283-4867) to get an idea of how we can "turn in our neighbotr" & "what's an illegal gun." They don't have a clue & seems they're getting a bit testy due to all the calls. (haven't yet called them personally - give it time)

And, to answer a question pose dto another - "why would illegal gun make you think of yourself?"

The answer is easy for me.

There is an anti-gun hysteria in this country (a hoplophobia, if you will) that is running rampant. The antis have jumped on the Columbine bit with a vengeance, teh newsies give it huge credence (no matter the statistics, etc.), The Prez (God bless him :() is hounding this thing to death & a bunch of politicos are jumping on the "anything reasonable" bandwagon.

Paranoid? Nope. A bit scared? Yup. Nervous? Uh-huh. Concerned about how this country could go right down the toilet with another flush or two? Most assuredly.

I've another real problem with seeing a newspaper article about some guy being arrested for a "weapons charge." I can carry a pistol into any CO classroom - perfectly legal. But I can't have a pair of sticks tied together with a rope (num-chucks) - that's an "illegal weapon" here & could "go up the river" for that. & I'm as expert with those as I am with my pistol.

That I would have possession of a pair of tied sticks more insidious than a pistol? I don't think so. Will those sticks cause me to somehow be more a danger to society or somehow "go off" due to their insidious nature? Doubtful.

"Society" has written rules that are somehow supposed to cover all the bases. Every time some idiot does something, we get another rule which equates to more "illegal guns," more "illegal sticks," whathaveyou.

It's stupid & will never solve the problem or the underlying cause/s. The end result is that we continually lose our freedoms.

Those of us that aren't the problem in the first place, get it in the end (figuratively & literally) with no end benefit to society.

Well, more than I started to stick in on this subject ....

Wrapping it up, I'm against any Project Exile-type anything. If the laws were written AND ENFORCED properly to begin with, we wouldn't have any need for anything similar to any type of "turn in your neighbor bit" or "illegal weapons" of any sort.

Propably too idealistic, but hey! it's me! ;)

(and after just finishing Unintended Consequences, perhaps you may forgive my most latest rant ;))
 
After having read through http://www.thefiringline.com:8080/forums/showthread.php?threadid=25600 & subsequent links (S2099/Redd/Making handguns into NFA class) - how 'bout it passes?

Y'all still want Project Exile to go for broke?

Thought not.

Problem with "us" these days is that we've bought into the whole idea that if it's a law, it should be enforced.

Bull.

"We" have been conditioned.

If I had a Vulcan, would I be any more danger to society than I am now? You may say, "labgrade? sure! He'd be a danger!"

OK, turn it around. Would YOU be any more a danger? 'Course not.

& I'm comfortable with that.

You?
 
Rob,

Your points are well taken, and I agree that a lot of gun owners kind of assume the fetal position when the latest raft of gun proposals float down the river because they really don't know how to do anything else. Besides, some people aren't happy unless they have something to complain about. However, I think the incrementalism of the degradation of our rights during the past few years simply makes people more aware (gunshy?) of how the best-intended law can be twisted to target people other than those it was designed to snag. Part of it for me was the wording. I would have felt a lot better if it had read "To report illegal USE OR POSSESSION of a gun, call 1-800-whatever." I do not possess any illegal guns so I do not worry particularly about this issue, but as I said before, how does your average skittish Nosy Neighbor know the difference between a semi-auto AR-15 and a dreaded "assault rifle" that Dan Rather harps on? They'd pee their pants if they touched a gun yet they're supposed to know what an auto-sear is? I don't buy it. Besides, how many times have we been told not to worry, that Congress only wants to ban some "other" type of gun or accessory, only to come back for more and more later. Put simply, what's "legal" today may not be so legal tomorrow, with only the stroke of a pen. (remember the "Stroke of a pen, law of the land" quote from Begala?) The SKS flap out in California is the perfect example. Those poor saps were "assured" that they could register their guns and being good citizens, they did. What did it get them? Shafted. Now, I wouldn't weep too much over the loss of an SKS ;), but, in all seriousness, what is to prevent Lockyer from deciding that ALL semi-autos must be turned in tomorrow? The fact that he can't get away with it (yet)? I'm sorry, but that's no reassurance to me, because I know that it's only a mattter of time until he or someone like him tries it. Call me paranoid, but what really is to stop it? If crime goes down because of the latest gun control law of the day, that means it's working and therefore we need more of a good thing. If it doesn't work, then the answer is we need more of a good thing. I also know that this is Texas, so such abuses aren't as likely, but I don't like to see it anywhere, because once a precedent is established, it spreads. I personally don't believe we need to "enforce the laws we have" because most of them stink anyway since they seem to concentrate on technicalities and don't address violent crime. But, if that is what Exile does, then I welcome it. As I said, it was just the wording that bothered me.

Law Dog,

Thanks for the info. That is what I understood Exile to be also, which is why I was puzzled by the illegal guns wording. I thought it was prosecuting illegal use of a gun, not NFA violations and such. I would hope that only violent crimes would be referred to ferderal prosecutors, but since it's up to the local DA, who knows?

If labgrade had a Vulcan, I don't think he'd be a danger, unless he put somebody's eye out with one of those pointy ears! <ducks> :D

[This message has been edited by Gopher a 45 (edited March 12, 2000).]
 
I am not trying to defend all legislation here.. just the original concept of EXILE.

There are such things as "illegal guns" in the way that EXILE uses the definition:

Guns owned by convicted Felons would be at the top of the list.
Guns carried by people engaged in other criminal activities would be right up there, and probably still have the support of the gun owning public.
The problem comes in the normally gray area for LE: Otherwise law abiding citizens carrying for self-defense without permits. Under EXILE these people will get hammered. That's why it is important to me that EXILE is only active (to my knowledge) in states where people can get a CCW permit.

If someone has the option of getting a CCW permit and chooses not to, that's there business.. but it won't wiegh to heavily on my conscience if they get screwed under a law designed to hurt real criminals. Afterall, they made the choice to needlessly violate the law. This harkens back to the age-old TFL question: "Where do we draw the line?" Do we refuse to get permits because they violate the spirit of the 2nd Amend... I don't think so.

------------------
-Essayons
 
I kinda resent the fact that one has to go through fingerprinting, etc to get a permit. A few years ago I wanted to get a DCM M-1, but I refuse to be fingerprinted. Its the principle. I have never been fingerprinted in my life (knowingly ;)) and resent that I be trated like some sort of criminal in order to obtain one.

Just because I happen to own a gun does not make me a criminal!

To paraphrase the campaign slogan of a few years ago-- 'Its the criminals, stupid!'

------------------
Remember, just because you are not paranoid doesn't mean they are not out to get you!
 
I watched some of the discussions in Congress about the state of Virginia adopting Richmond's Project Exile program (bless C-SPAN).

I always wondered why any state needed the Feds to come in -- why didn't they just make state laws as tough as the Feds? Well, in an encouraging trend, this is what is happening.
Project Exile goes into effect, then as it's success becomes evident, the State legislature uses the federal law as a template, and the Feds bow out. Now the argument can be made that this is back-door Federalization of the State, but it appears that the states don't all implement the exact same code. Maybe that point is moot.

Another reason the cities and states wanted the Feds in on this is that the threat of being sent to some Federal jail FAR away from the home boys and family was just as big a deterrent. It's one thing to be jailed with your friends, something else to be all alone amongst strangers and have to prove how tough you are all over again.

The biggest kick I got out of watching these proceedings was that the Democrats HATED this law and nit-picked the devil out of those testifying. A common theme was whining about the cost to the Federal govt to implement these projects (from a Democrat???). That's where it came out that the states were phasing out the Feds as the project took hold -- at least in Virginia.
I was very impressed by the proessionalism of both the state and federal speakers.

I do agree that the wording needs to be changed -- has anybody written the proper people with this suggestion?

------------------
The New World Order has a Third Reich odor.
 
I have to agree with RickD. There are no "illegal guns" per the 2nd Amendment, just illegal posession.

The original concept of Project Exile is very good, however, it only takes a little twisting to make a good thing bad. Remember, "It's for the children!" or "If it saves just one life!"

Here we have some 20,000 laws concerning firearms and their ownership. How many of them if enforced would land you in jail? I know of a couple, at least, for me.

But, who are the real felons?

"Felon" has developed a much broader definition than it needs. For instance, last year by a majority vote of the people we made the raising of fighting birds (cock fighting) a class 6 felony. This destroyed the livelyhood of many people, and if they continued would have deprived them of their voting rights and right to bear arms, etc.

So, when they say they want to enforce all of these laws, I have to back away from the entire project, because of the "new" consequences that it would bring about.

It could easily turn into another "war on drugs"

If it is solely for the locking away those who are REAL felons by using a firearm in the commission of a crime, then it would have my full support. But for cosmetic infractions of uncontitutional laws, no way!

------------------
John/az

"The middle of the road between the extremes of good and evil, is evil. When freedom is at stake, your silence is not golden, it's yellow..." RKBA!

[This message has been edited by John/az2 (edited March 12, 2000).]
 
"In Germany, they came for the communists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a communist. Then, they came for the
Jews, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew. Then, they came for the trade unionists, and I didn't speak up because I
wasn't a trade unionist. Then, they came for the Catholics, and I didn't speak up because I was a Protestant. Then, they came
for me, and by that time there was no one left to speak up."
Pastor Martin Niemoller - late 1930's
 
"Project Exile" is one of those "reasonable gun law" reasons that I gave my NRA membership dues to Jew For the Protection of Firearms Ownership.
SEE:
* jpfo.org/jim_pate.htm
* jpfo.org/jp-ques.htm
* jpfo.org/story.htm
* jpfo.org/commonsense06.htm
* jpfo.org/commonsense05.htm
* jpfo.org/speech.htm
I'm tired of gun lobbyists associations joining ranks with these, "lets hold hands and make this world a better place by enforcing existing gun laws", citizen disarming gun confiscators!

If this group is so politically powerful, why do they not have much effect at elliminating existing gun confiscation laws? IMNSHO What this "Project Exile" will add to is the possibility of further infringment upon the liberties of law abiding decent citizens who have never been arrested in our life, like most of us here in this forum.

The night after the Colombine shooting, NRA Representative and Attorney was interveiwed with one of those - 'lets disarm the innocent'- spokesmen, whos name was not worth trying to remember. This attorney, who was supposed to be on OUR side, sounded downright appologetic for the crime. He submitted to the opositions attacks like a scared mutt to an alpha male. Did anyone else see this interview on ABC nightline? He actually agreed to the need to prevent such tragedies by enforceing existing gun laws.

"Crimes committed with the use of guns are not GUN issues--they are criminal issues." PE, The Crime Bill, and The Brady Bill are the kind of "reasonable gun law" nonsense that tries to cure a problem requiring capital punishment of those who commit capital crimes with "lets focus on a certain class of weapon that is used", in the name of stopping bad guys and protecting our public.

Should one who commits murder, treason, kidnapping, or rape with the use of a gun get a harsher prison sentence? NO! They aught to get hung from a lamp post on the city courtyard following a guilty verdict by a fair trial of his peers. Should they pass laws trying to keep guns, automatic knives, baseball bats and frying pans out of the hands of ex-convicts? Absolutely NOT! They've already tried that and all that has been accomplished is a list of law abiding firearms owners for future confiscation of the means to defend themselves!

This is in no way an attack on my NRA friends. What I have said is a philosophical view that happens to differ in part from what many gun right lobbying groups seem to be attempting. IMHO, and the opinions of tens of millions of others (if they were still alive to voice their views), too many gun owners have been offering rope to those who have been attempting to hang us.
--------------
"The very first American gun law was one too many existing gun laws! What is a reasonable gun law? There is NO such critter!" --EQ

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"But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip; and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." -Jesus Christ (Luke 22:36, see John 3:15-18)


[This message has been edited by EQUALIZER (edited March 12, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by EQUALIZER (edited March 12, 2000).]
 
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