Would like your input. I'm beginning to test some semi handgun loads and I am more of a precision rifle guy at the moment so I need some input on your load development testing criteria for handgun. I have a chronograph. My main questions are what distance do you typically test at ? How many shots do you put on a target to measure groupings ? Lastly what's the best method of shooting ie a bag , a rest or just offhand ? I'll be testing .40 S&W 165 rnfp's and 180 rnfp's in my Glock G35 using Unique, WST , Titegroup, and Longshot. Thanks !
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Testing semi handgun loads questions
- Thread starter Road_Clam
- Start date
g.willikers
New member
The distance to the chronograph will be determined by the results.
If the readings are goofy, then more distance is usually needed, due to things other than the bullet interfering with the readout.
Or shoot through cardboard to stop powder and gasses from messing things up.
As for the number of shots needed for a decent read, that mostly depends on the consistency of the powder measure and the powder used.
If the readings are close to one another, then less rounds are needed to get good info.
If the readings are all over the place, then a different approach to loading the powder is necessary.
At least that's been my experience.
I use a chronograph with bench support, but no bag or such.
As long as the bullet goes over the sensors and clear of the unit, no great accuracy is called for.
Hope this helps some.
If the readings are goofy, then more distance is usually needed, due to things other than the bullet interfering with the readout.
Or shoot through cardboard to stop powder and gasses from messing things up.
As for the number of shots needed for a decent read, that mostly depends on the consistency of the powder measure and the powder used.
If the readings are close to one another, then less rounds are needed to get good info.
If the readings are all over the place, then a different approach to loading the powder is necessary.
At least that's been my experience.
I use a chronograph with bench support, but no bag or such.
As long as the bullet goes over the sensors and clear of the unit, no great accuracy is called for.
Hope this helps some.
Using the chrono was covered...
As far as "groups" go, I will usually shoot at 10 Yds for a handgun - and I use 5 shots as a good indication of group. Ideally I want all 5 shots to touch one another...even if I shoot offhand.. but a 1 1/2" or 2" group is probably as good an indication as any ..of a quality load..( for that handgun, and that powder and bullet combination)....
I expect my groups, with my reloads, to be tighter than most factory ammo...because I know I can hold tighter tolerances with my press.
I shoot offhand...but if I was going to bench rest the gun ...I would expect tighter groups.
As far as "groups" go, I will usually shoot at 10 Yds for a handgun - and I use 5 shots as a good indication of group. Ideally I want all 5 shots to touch one another...even if I shoot offhand.. but a 1 1/2" or 2" group is probably as good an indication as any ..of a quality load..( for that handgun, and that powder and bullet combination)....
I expect my groups, with my reloads, to be tighter than most factory ammo...because I know I can hold tighter tolerances with my press.
I shoot offhand...but if I was going to bench rest the gun ...I would expect tighter groups.
At what distance do you typically test?
For me, 4 yards. Two reasons: First, I need to get the chrono out in direct sunlight, and my range is covered with an over-hang. Second, the other things g.willikers already mentioned. 4 yards may not be ideal; but I use that distance consistently; and that's more important than the actual distance.
How many shots do you put on a target to measure groupings?
Usually six - because I usually shoot revolver. But I also do strings of 10 rounds. And I usually do several strings - depending on the situation. If it's a load I've "zeroed in on," then I'll do multiple strings. If it's a new loading, and I just need a rough velocity reading for the time being, I'll just do one string.
What's the best method of shooting ie a bag , a rest or just offhand?
For me, offhand. Everybody's different though. But I have never been able to shoot a pistol from a bag or rest. I also sight my guns offhand (and double-action for revolvers) too; always have; suspect I always will.
For accuracy testing, I like to remove some of the human factor by resting on bags on my bench. I use my natural grip at a comfortable height for sitting up-right, and rest only my wrists on the bags. I use a standard 25 yd. bullseye target, at 25 yds.
As far as loading and testing for power, I don't. I stick to the book for my pistol shooters, and carry with factory loads. jd
As far as loading and testing for power, I don't. I stick to the book for my pistol shooters, and carry with factory loads. jd
Thank's guys, seems as I'm already testing @25 yds , and I place my chrono at 10 ft. In the past I've been using a large Caldwell bag to rest the bottom of the grip on to maintain a consistiant shot path through the chorongraph. The only time I ever shot the sun deflector rods on my chronograph was when I was using my Glock shooting off hand. I'm a newer handgun shooter so im looking to minimize my deficiencies when testing.
My main questions are what distance do you typically test at ?
If by that you mean how far to the screens, I use 15 feet to the center of the screens with a 2 ft. spacing. if you also mean what range, then I shoot groups at the same time I'm testing speed at 25 yards. That's the shortest distance my club has, but I would still test for groups at 25 yds.
How many shots do you put on a target to measure groupings ?
usually 5 shots, mainly because that's how many I load per charge weight and the boxes all have 5 shells per row.
Lastly what's the best method of shooting ie a bag , a rest or just offhand ?
I use the same method as you with sand bags to rest my wrists on at a comfortable shooting height. NOT so I'm slouched over straining to maintain a sight picture. Those that stand to shoot groups for accuracy are kidding us and themselves that those groups are the best they could get. My dad called off-hand shooting awful hand. NOBODY can shoot off-hand as good as off a rest. Whether it's handgun or rifle.
Now somebody will say any gun will shoot to a different point-of-aim when shot off a rest, than from an un-supported/off-hand position. This may be true if perhaps the barrel of the weapon was rested on something hard so it kicked away from that hard hold. It's a moot point with defensive handguns shot at very short distances. Center of mass is hardly target accuracy.
I like to remove as much as the human condition as possible when developing a new load or testing out a new gun so I use every bit as much support as I can possibly get...bench, rice bags, sit down, lean against a tree if I have to etc.
Once I find out what the gun and ammo are capable of doing that shames me into practicing to come as close as possible to that results and removes my excuses for why I'm shooting badly.
FWIW one of the premier gun makers, Les Baer, guarantees his .45 ACP 1911 style guns to shoot:
3 inches at 50 yards
I put that on its own line to emphasis it. These guns are very expensive, (around $3000) beautiful guns designed for target shooting. So if your gun and ammo combination comes close you should be pretty happy with it.
https://www.lesbaer.com/UM5.html
Once I find out what the gun and ammo are capable of doing that shames me into practicing to come as close as possible to that results and removes my excuses for why I'm shooting badly.
FWIW one of the premier gun makers, Les Baer, guarantees his .45 ACP 1911 style guns to shoot:
3 inches at 50 yards
I put that on its own line to emphasis it. These guns are very expensive, (around $3000) beautiful guns designed for target shooting. So if your gun and ammo combination comes close you should be pretty happy with it.
https://www.lesbaer.com/UM5.html
I just started using a chrono for load development, lets say about 5 months or so ago. I use a bag for stability. I set up my ProChrono at 10 feet and I set up a standard 12"x12" paper target with an 8" outside diameter circle in the middle at 10 yrds. Normally with a revolver I shoot 3 strings of 6 rounds each. For semi auto I usually shoot whatever the max amount the magazine will hold which in my case is 6 or 10 rounds and again in 3 strings. I load for safety, velocity and fun. My goal at any distance is all shots inside the 6" ring on the target. I stay within published data limits and try to get close to the listed velocities for a particular load.
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I've been using a large Caldwell bag to rest the bottom of the grip on to maintain a consistiant shot path through the chorongraph
I have always gotten too much bounce when resting the pistol on any surface including bags, I would rest my wrists on the bag and keep the gun in free space to avoid any surface contact. Rifles, that is a completely different matter.
Just my take on it.
Jim
I used to use a rest to test my hand loads to what which were the most accurate. In doing so I've found that what may be the most accurate that way wasn't necessarily the most accurate the way I normally shoot handguns which is off hand between 15 and 25 yards depending on my mood. I've since switched to testing loads for accuracy by shooting them the way I would normally. I also don't bother using a chronograph for hand gun loads because I've found that none of them are at or near max and they are pretty much for killing paper targets.
Now for my pet load in my Glock G35 I use Berrys and Rainier 180 grain plated with 6.0 grains of Power Pistol. Amazingly accurate mild recoiling target load that drops the brass in a nice little pile about 3' from me.
Now for my pet load in my Glock G35 I use Berrys and Rainier 180 grain plated with 6.0 grains of Power Pistol. Amazingly accurate mild recoiling target load that drops the brass in a nice little pile about 3' from me.
Quote:
I've been using a large Caldwell bag to rest the bottom of the grip on to maintain a consistiant shot path through the chorongraph
I have always gotten too much bounce when resting the pistol on any surface including bags, I would rest my wrists on the bag and keep the gun in free space to avoid any surface contact. Rifles, that is a completely different matter.
Just my take on it.
Jim
Jim, to reiterate what I said above, that's exactly how I do it. Only my hands are touching the gun. I also have quite a stack of bags so I can sit upright to allow my trifocals to see the sights without stress. @ 69 Y.O. I have to decide which will be out of focus, the target or the sights.
You kids out there, don't laugh, your time is coming, right around 40-45 Y.O. , you'll need bifocals. But take it from me, get trifocals for shooting, the trifocals allow me to see the front sight clearly with the target a blur.
When shooting the various combat games, (IPSC OR IDPA), I focus on the target, the front sight is a blur. Very few "aimed" shots when you're trying to shoot fast.
I don't have any hi capacity semis., so my group is a full magazine in my SW439or how many the revolver holds.
I shoot with the butt of the gun rested on a bag of lead shot.
I start at 50ft to make sure they are on the paper, and then move out to 75ft where you can really start to see variances in accurracy. If its a hunting pistol, I then recheck zero at 50, 75, and 100yds, which might be way off, even though you cant see it at 50ft. My SW439 9mm has also been tested out to 50 yards, but I'm curios to test it past that.
I shoot with the butt of the gun rested on a bag of lead shot.
I start at 50ft to make sure they are on the paper, and then move out to 75ft where you can really start to see variances in accurracy. If its a hunting pistol, I then recheck zero at 50, 75, and 100yds, which might be way off, even though you cant see it at 50ft. My SW439 9mm has also been tested out to 50 yards, but I'm curios to test it past that.
The range near where I live:
Range Facilities
Rifle - 50 and 100 yd.
Pistol - 7yd, 50ft, 25yd and 50yd
elevation 100 feet, use optical chronograph on a tripod
When I target practice for the month of October out in the sage brush..
elevation 2500 feet, use magnetic chronograph clamped to the barrel and set up targets with laser range finder
50y, 100y., 200y, 300y, 400y, 500y, 550y
Range Facilities
Rifle - 50 and 100 yd.
Pistol - 7yd, 50ft, 25yd and 50yd
elevation 100 feet, use optical chronograph on a tripod
When I target practice for the month of October out in the sage brush..
elevation 2500 feet, use magnetic chronograph clamped to the barrel and set up targets with laser range finder
50y, 100y., 200y, 300y, 400y, 500y, 550y
So in the instance of "working up" from say 4.6gr to 6.2 will I be able to stay within a 9" pie plate at 25 yds or will I need to do a hold over ? (I loaded using .2 gr increments). When testing rifle I simply observe the trend of the previous grouping and compensate with a few scope clicks. With rifle the groups can move upwards or downwards depending on the caliber as I increase the powder charge... I'm in a new game with fixed sight handgun..
So in the instance of "working up" from say 4.6gr to 6.2 will I be able to stay within a 9" pie plate at 25 yds or will I need to do a hold over ? (I loaded using .2 gr increments). When testing rifle I simply observe the trend of the previous grouping and compensate with a few scope clicks. With rifle the groups can move upwards or downwards depending on the caliber as I increase the powder charge... I'm in a new game with fixed sight handgun..
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Doing load testing is not about hitting a bullseye, it's about testing for performance of a load IE group size not location. Moving sights to hit a bullseye/point-of-aim comes after load testing, when you have a stable load that you've loaded a batch for whatever purpose.
Fixed sight,(non-adjustable) weapons, you have to use some sort of hold over, or Kentucky windage to move the group or the point of impact to the bullseye. It could mean burying the front sight down in the rear notch, floating the bullseye on the front sight, or covering the bullseye with the front sight. Most modern semi-autos have the ability to drift the sight or a screw to loosen to move the rear sight side to side to adjust windage.
With fixed sights, you can "sight in" your height of impact with velocity by bullet weight. The faster the bullet, the lower the point of impact. It takes alittle more trail and error with fixed sights because you are looking for a tight group AND trying to keep it the right point of impact on the target.
Well, got all my data compiled. Some interesting data. Looks like WST and the 180 gr rnfp shot a bit better through my Glock G35. I showed some good groups at both 4.6gr and then again at 5.2 (929 and 1006 fps respectively). I was initially trying to shoot 4 shot groups but struggled a bit getting all 4 shots on a 9" paper plate so I ended up just shooting 8 shots and calculating the best 5 shot group. I averaged a 3.5" group at 25 yds. The 165's didn't seem to shoot as tight. The best group was 5.6 gr @ 980 fps and that yielded a 5.2" group. Another interesting comment when testing the 165's was the fact that after 5.6gr my velocities peaked at 980 then thereafter shooting 5.8 , 6, and 6.2 my velocities actually started dropping back down. So next is moving on to Unique..
My pistol load evaluation testing has been evolving from testing at 10, 15 and 25 yards, to only testing at 15 and 25 yards. This is probably based on my own limitations and also that at 10 yards you don't see much difference in results.
Currently what I do is load at .1gr increments with 4 or 5 different loads per bullet/powder combination. Each load has 5 rounds, thus I evaluate 5 shot groupings. Most of the time I can pick a load after testing at 15yards, but in some cases I will test at 25 yards if I can't decide between a few loads at 15 yards.
I don't do bulls eye shooting, so I am looking for a sub 1.5" grouping at 15 yards. When I get a grouping of around 1" at 15yards, then normally that is a keeper for me.
I do shoot from a rest to at least try and minimize one big variable, me.
Currently what I do is load at .1gr increments with 4 or 5 different loads per bullet/powder combination. Each load has 5 rounds, thus I evaluate 5 shot groupings. Most of the time I can pick a load after testing at 15yards, but in some cases I will test at 25 yards if I can't decide between a few loads at 15 yards.
I don't do bulls eye shooting, so I am looking for a sub 1.5" grouping at 15 yards. When I get a grouping of around 1" at 15yards, then normally that is a keeper for me.
I do shoot from a rest to at least try and minimize one big variable, me.