Terminal ballistic question

H

heyduke

New member
Doing some thinking while doing some chores, and for some reason I never thought of this question before (and if it's been asked before, apologies).

Do you think that if Mike Platt of the '86 Miami shootout would of taken the first two hits with a .40, he would of "went down" right away (taking those shots in the eaxact same place on his body?)

Personally, I don't really think so, but since I'm not an expert in terminal ballistics, so I'm asking:D

Just seems like the whoe episode was a clusterduck from the start with a very bad outcome.
 
Last edited:
Penetration

http://www.johnwmyers.com/Handgun_gel_comparison.jpg

I think, had he been hit with todays ammunition in either 9mm or 40 S&W he would have gone down. I believe the 9mm he was shot with was Win. Silver Tips and the bullet stopped very close to his heart. My Double Tap 9mm, 147 gr Gold Dots certainly would have done the job as would my 40 180 gr Federal Hydra Shok's. Had he been hit with the 200 gr 40's that D.T. puts out he would be have been down looking at his arm lying on the ground beside him. Look at the chart above.
 
Hard to say, but I doubt it. Platt was just a very hard bring-down, and when people don't want to go down they just don't go down barring some very unusual events. Witness the folks that have been shot through the heart, or the brain, or other places that kept on fighting or whatever they were doing. Most fights seem to stop because the players decide to stop, not because they have to stop. We've got enough cases of folks being shot up with the newer ammo and fighting on to think there would have been any real difference, IMO.
Had he been hit with the 200 gr 40's that D.T. puts out he would be have been down looking at his arm lying on the ground beside him. Look at the chart above.
Click to expand...
Sorry, but to think that any handgun round is going to reliably blow man's arm completely off is more than a little questionable.
 
Hard to say, but I doubt it. Platt was just a very hard bring-down, and when people don't want to go down they just don't go down barring some very unusual events
Click to expand...

To some extent, I agree with you Dave ("usually" bigger and faster is always better).

Seems like there also was a list of events leading to the shootings that was for a better lack of words, bad luck for the Feds doing the stop.

Just got me thinking how this event was the catalyst (sp?) for "thinking" that the 9mm was an underpowered round. What happend to all the events (AKA shootouts) in the past where the 9mm was used? Did bad guys go down when they got shot with the 9mm in the past? How come it was this event that led the Feds to look at the "power" of the 9mm round? (I know, probably because Platt was able to still engage even though after he was hit and kill two agents).

Then again, how did the Feds come up with the 9mm to begin with to use in their sidearm?

Also, seems that some agents were also using .38 specials (+P loads) as well, and that a lot of lead went flying, but overall, the hit count wasn't very high on the Feds side.

That said, I personally know a man who was hit two times with a .40

One shot hit him in the neck, the other in the chest (missed the heart). The man in question was of course hospitalized, but survived. Does this mean the 40 is an underpowered round?

For the record, I don't think anything is an underpowered round, as long as you hit the right place.
 
Last edited:
I am not going to be popular!

First, the FBI blamed the Silver Tip, and spent several million on that tack!

Reality, this group of Agents were hunting these two killers, specifically!

They knew their MOs and weapons. I have been in the Gun Vault in Quantico... it is bursting at the seams with real good tools to go against .223 Rifles! just one type comes to mind, M16s. I am sure the odd tanker M1 Rifles as well, a 2" snub nosed Chief Special placed on the seat, to get ready, under the dash on impact, spectacles flew off, very bad vision without them, a group of Agents, with one Ex-Cop, he had a 870, then shot the two of them to death at point blank range, with his Revolver.

Tactics/mind set, sucked, brave men, of course they went to the sound of the guns. Simple Brit or Canadian Mil Spec hardball at 1250 fps would have gone through both lungs, and the heart!

Should have had!

Vehicle, Suburban, FBI Raid jackets, (over vests) agent with specs? Sports band, keep them on. Pistols, accurized .45 Colts, two spare mags' in shoulder holsters.
Could they stop for lunch dressed this way? They could have what they wanted in my Café'!!
And of course their choice of long guns. Right next to them, in racks.

I have a real good friend retired FBI Agent, TAC team etc, have visited the Academy 4 times, I know what they have available in the way of equipment.

If any one sees this as an attack against their bravery, you are wrong.
 
If any one sees this as an attack against their bravery, you are wrong
Click to expand...

Not at all.

They knew their MOs and weapons
Click to expand...

By the same token, I realize that this sounds like Monday morning quarterbacking, but given the details of the "Miami shootout" (from what I've been able to read), I can't help but wonder if a better tactic could of been used in stopping the suspects at that time (first thought is having more "firepower").

That said, it still does not change the fact that apparently (and I could be wrong) that due to this incident, the FBI felt that the 9mm was too "weak" to stop a human threat.

Again, I find it hard to believe that the FBI in it's entire time frame of useing the 9mm, up until Miami, they never had to use their sidearms to stop a human threat.
 
My Double Tap 9mm, 147 gr Gold Dots certainly would have done the job as would my 40 180 gr Federal Hydra Shok's.
Click to expand...

How do you know that, unless you have actually shot someone?

Every round is a stopper and every round is ineffective. There are just too many variables to be able to say, "This will always work." Or, "This will never work."

"Larger, heavier, faster" is USUALLY more effective, but you just never know. Second-guessing and armchair quarterbacking is all but useless.
 
I have read a lot about this and have the study that Dr. Anderson did post mortem.

Platt and Matix were ex-military and very determined NOT to go to jail. They had nothing to lose and were quite ready to do whatever it took. Just read some Medal of Honor citations and you will see what the body can do when the will commands it. Of course these guys were thugs but determined nonetheless.

I think the FBI did what they had to do. Once they were "made" by Platt and Matix after an incredibly lucky enocounter on US 1 they had to take them down before they got out into more populated areas and could kill/hurt/kidnap civilians.

Unfortunately, it cost two of them but probably saved many others. Platt and Matix would not have hesitated to take hostages and kill them if need be.

Much of this was just bad luck for the agents IMO. Sometimes you get lucky sometimes not.
 
Every round is a stopper and every round is ineffective. There are just too many variables to be able to say
Click to expand...

Yet the FBI is able to determine that the 9mm is "ineffective"? That's my point, and I actually agree with you.

"Larger, heavier, faster" is USUALLY more effective, but you just never know
Click to expand...

Take the same point of entry on a human chest. Shoot that target point with a .22LR, and then the same target with a .44 mag. Chances are the .44 mag will do more damage than the .22

That was my point.

I have read a lot about this and have the study that Dr. Anderson did post mortem
Click to expand...

I was actually thinking about ordering that information. Did you find in informative?

Once they were "made" by Platt and Matix after an incredibly lucky enocounter on US 1 they had to take them down before they got out into more populated areas and could kill/hurt/kidnap civilians
Click to expand...

Can I ask where did you get that information from? I was not under the impression that they (Feds) had to take the men down ASAP due to a possible hostage situation.

Much of this was just bad luck for the agents IMO. Sometimes you get lucky sometimes not
Click to expand...

Agreed, however, sometimes your work has an effect on your luck.
 
If Platt had been hit with .38 Special 158gr LSWCHP +P instead it probably would've passed completely through his heart and he probably would have been stopped much sooner.

Ironically, it was the .38 Special 158gr LSWCHP +P, with it's deep penetration, that stopped the fight.

So had the FBI been equipped with modern day ammunition I have reason to believe only two agents would've been wounded - Richard Manauzzi and Gordon McNeill.
 
Just got me thinking how this event was the catalyst (sp?) for "thinking" that the 9mm was an underpowered round.
Click to expand...
I don't think it was the catalyst. The 9 had been taking a lot of guff (underservedly, IMO) for a long time before this.
 
Should have had!
Click to expand...
Hind sight is always 20/20. The agents were as well-equipped and as well-prepared as virtually any other group of officers would have been in that same situation at that time. That is perhaps the most important thing coming out of there, IMO, that we need to prepare for violence at a different level than we tend to focus on.
 
That said, it still does not change the fact that apparently (and I could be wrong) that due to this incident, the FBI felt that the 9mm was too "weak" to stop a human threat.
Click to expand...
Actually that is not what the FBI felt. What the FBI ended up deciding was that ammunition of ANY caliber needed to meet certain perfromance standards, whether it be 9mm, 40 S&W, 10mm, 45 ACP, .38 Spl, and so on.
 
What the FBI ended up deciding was that ammunition of ANY caliber needed to meet certain perfromance standards, whether it be 9mm, 40 S&W, 10mm, 45 ACP, .38 Spl, and so on
Click to expand...

But what changed the performance standards? (they had to change, because the FBI went to the 10, then the .40) Was it that Platt was still able to return fire after he was hit?

Better yet, what performance standards did the 9mm meet per FBI "standards" to begin with?

Apologies if I seem to be "knit picking" here, just a little perplexed.

Ironically, it was the .38 Special 158gr LSWCHP +P, with it's deep penetration, that stopped the fight
Click to expand...

Can I ask where you got that info from?
 
Last edited:
I was actually thinking about ordering that information. Did you find in informative?
Click to expand...

Yes I did. It is very informative. Autopsy photos and all.

Can I ask where did you get that information from? I was not under the impression that they (Feds) had to take the men down ASAP due to a possible hostage situation.
Click to expand...

There are several good reports including a full blown one at the FBI site. Here is one: http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs7.htm. To your question, on the day in question the Miami Agents went on kind of a rolling stakeout. Platt and Matix were brazen and didn't really bother to change their MO much. In fact they both lived fairly close to the banks they robbed. The Agents got a real break when they spotted them driving along US 1 in South Miami (they had a description and lic# for the car which was stolen) Then the two bad guys made the tail car and started drving thru residential areas very slowly while the agents saw them loading up their longguns for a fight. The agents made the decision (a correct one I believe) to try and take them in the relatively civilian free area (most people were at work) rather than let them get back on the US 1 where there were loads of malls and stores and groupings of civilians. Heck, even during the firefight civilians drove through the fire zone unaware! The agents were faced with making a quick decision and did so but sacrificed some tactical advantage and it cost them two agents.

Agreed, however, sometimes your work has an effect on your luck.
Click to expand...

Agree also, but someday your luck is bad and you die. Tough stuff but the truth. I think we citizens owe those guys. My .02.
 
But what changed the performance standards? (they had to change, because the FBI went to the 10, then the .40)
Click to expand...
No, they didn't have to change. They had to be developed. There really weren't any formal standards regarding things like penetration recommendations, testing protocols, etc. FWIW, after the protocols were put in place, while the FBI did adopt the 10mm, it also allowed the 9mm to still be carried. Shawn can probably give a better timeline and listing of what was/is carried than I can at this point.
 
FORENSIC ANALYSIS OF THE APRIL 11, 1986, FBI FIREFIGHT
by W French Anderson, M.D.
Click to expand...

Thank you. I will be reading a new book.

No, they didn't have to change. They had to be developed
Click to expand...

Very well worded. Thank you for that thought.

Then the two bad guys made the tail car and started drving thru residential areas very slowly while the agents saw them loading up their longguns for a fight
Click to expand...

Thinking out loud, what doesn't make sense is why two well trained former soldiers hell bent on "civilian mayhem" would be carrying their "longguns" in a vehicle not already loaded, ready to go? Just has me scratching my head.

I think we citizens owe those guys
Click to expand...

I agree 100%, as well as all the other LEO's who wear a badge, and put their life on the line, usually being in a no win situation, having to deal with "interesting people" that have you scratching your head on where our society is heading.

Agree also, but someday your luck is bad and you die
Click to expand...

Again, agreed, but I've expereinced that when something really "goes south" (AKA bad luck, and someone dies) that usually it's more than one single incident/event, but a series of incidents/events that occur in some order that may not seem important at the time, and although those incidents/events may not seem bad at the moment when everything is going ok, but "add" those incidents/events up, and then have something "break the camels back" so to speak, and the final outcome could be a disaster.
 
Thinking out loud, what doesn't make sense is why two well trained former soldiers hell bent on "civilian mayhem" would be carrying their "longguns" in a vehicle not already loaded, ready to go? Just has me scratching my head.
Click to expand...

I don't think that Platt and Matix were at the point where they were ready to load up. The agents caught them by surprise and I think their MO was to drive a car to a point switch cars and them rob the banks. It was a chance encounter. Once they made the agents they downshifted there routine and the agents saw them getting ready to shoot it out.

Again, agreed, but I've expereinced that when something really "goes south" (AKA bad luck, and someone dies) that usually it's more than one single incident/event, but a series of incidents/events that occur in some order that may not seem important at the time, and although those incidents/events may not seem bad at the moment when everything is going ok, but "add" those incidents/events up, and then have something "break the camels back" so to speak, and the final outcome could be a disaster.
Click to expand...

I would recommend this site: http://www.thegunzone.com/11april86.html
I think it shows a better picture than I can describe. My impression is generally the FBI like to stake out their arrests and then take them down with overwhelming force quickly. They were I think by chance forced into the situation that I agree they probably didn't prepare for well. I think they thought the two would surrender to six agents rather than fight. Most BGs would have but these two were the fatal exceptions. Of course it is easy to use hindsight 20 years later.:)
 
I was in law enforcement then. This was "THE" topic for years after. The 9mm silvertip worked as it was designed to. Their tactics and marksmanship sucked. The tactics, well crap happens and they had to act ad-hoc like most LE encounters so I can place no blame because I have been in similar situations. The fact that one agent emptied his gun from almost contact distance without scoring a hit is scary.

What we owe these brave men is to analyze the situation and learn everything that can be learned from it so that others do not fall the same way. This particular situation has been studied from every angle. What I find scary is that after decades of training cops are still making alot of the the same mistakes and being killed.

The lessons that I took from this were, know your equipment, carry lots of ammo and be the best with your weapons that you can be.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top