Telling Someone They're Wrong

K

Kentucky Rifle

New member
I walked into my father in law's house last night and found him sitting at the kitchen table trying to stuff the magazine of his new Kel-Tec P32 with .32 S&W instead of .32 ACP. He was even using a metal letter opener in an attempt to get the mag loaded!
My father in law is great, but he seems to think that all ammo in a given caliber is the same. I find it really difficult to convince him otherwise. A few weeks ago he ordered some really cheap 9MM FMJ ammo from a catalog because of it's low price, and the free ammo cans that it came in. He thinks he's well armed with this stuff!
It is very difficult to tell him that he is wrong without him considering it an insult.
Suggestions anyone??

Thanks,
Will
 
Side by side comparison? Xerox excerpts of case dimensions from a loading manual? How about the owner's manual where it reads, "Use only factory loaded xyz caliber ammo?" Show him a blown up gun (some ranges display them) and warn him of the consequences?

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Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt
 
WLM, that can be a delicate situation. You don't want to offend your FIL. I think I would say a little something like this:

Hey! What the hell are you doing you old fart! Your using the wrong ammo for that gun. Are you crazy?

But, maybe that was too gentle.
 
The primary issue is safety. Use a birthday or something to give him 1k of .32ACP. Find a way to collect the other useless and dangerous mess he owns. Sounds like he squeeks when he walks so the 1k should set him up for life. Your wife will think you are a hero, (tell him you stole em at a garage sale) he will think you're savvy and nobody gets hurt. Just a suggestion :) Mal h- I want you to know I ruined a keyboard when I saw your post. Ehh it was worth 15 bucks. LOL

[This message has been edited by G-Freeman (edited November 13, 1999).]
 
Please tell me that 9mm he bought isn't American Ammunition brand from the Sportsmans Guide. If so, see these threads:
[Link to invalid post]
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“The whole of the Bill (of Rights) is a declaration of the right of the people at large or considered as individuals. ... It establishes some rights of the individual as unalienable and which consequently, no majority has a right to deprive them of.” -Alexander Addison, 1789
 
If he is really thick-headed show him a picture of a blown-up hand from justmeat.com or rotten.com. That should set him straight for a few days. (Be warned, those are really gross sites.)
 
My first thought would be to run from the room, hands covering your head, screaming something like "INCOMMING!" Using a letter opener, indeed!

But then I remember how I felt when the proprietor of a gun shop tried to tell me how lucky I was to have survived firing 7.62x39mm rounds in an M-1A just because he thought the cheap copper-washed steel cases of Norinco 7.62x51mm looked like the Chinese fodder in the Russian caliber. Whereupon I demanded a new box to show I was right. But, still, being called an idiot, even if justified, is not going to be very productive.

I would explain to him the concern you feel about the safety of trying to load or shoot "just any" round since there are at least 6 different .32-caliber rounds. Even mouse guns go "boom" (the bad way).

As to the cheap 9mm FMJ, if you can arrange a demonstration with something as simple as a milk jug filled with water, the power differentials are easily visually apparent. Watching water slowly trickle out of a pair of small holes is fairly convincing.
 
Mal H,
My first thought was to say something similar to your post, however he IS my father in law and I bit my tounge. It was rather easy to keep quiet. I neglected to say that he also pointed the little pistol at my head as he was poking the letter opener into the chamber. SHEEESH!!!

deanf,
I don't know the brand name of the cheap FMJ, but I'm going back over there wednesday night, and I'll look at a cartridge.

Republic Thunderbolt,
(Did you fly Jugs? I think they're beautiful!)
Your suggestion of the water jug demonstration sounds like the way to go. It's supposed to be warm here this week, so I'll try to do that tuesday or wednesday morning.
Thanks for the plan.
I don't have a 9MM myself, so we'll use his new PT-111. That's another thing. We went to the gun shop to buy new Glocks. I purchased a new 27. (40 cal.) However he decided to "save" $150.00, and bought a Taurus.
I could hardly believe it. He could have any pistol he wanted, and he chose the Tarus! Ah well....

Thanks for the replies,
Will

[This message has been edited by WLM (edited November 14, 1999).]

[This message has been edited by WLM (edited November 14, 1999).]
 
I should have added this to my original post:

After saying that to my father-in-law, and I really would have said it, he would probably have punched me in the arm and then we would have wandered down to his lower 40 to do some serious plinking. Talk, about a veteran, he went through all of WW II, Korea and a good portion of the Vietnam War in the US Army. I never had to hold back on him and he definitely never held back on me. We sure do miss the old man.
 
OK, you can practice by telling me I'm an idiot--'cause I have no idea what the problem is with the 9mm FMJ. I'm a little new to handguns. :)
Is the problem that you prefer hollowpoints, or is 9mm that cheap just generally unreliable or underpowered? One of the reasons I'm considering a 9mm pistol is cheap ammo, so it's a genuine concern.
And no, I won't take offense. :)

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Don

"Its not criminals that go into schools and shoot children"
--Ann Pearston, British Gun Control apologist and moron
 
Don,
Yes, I do prefer hollow-points in my defensive handguns. However, my objection to the 9mm my FIL purchased is that it is an "off-brand". It even looks crappy. My experience is that good "name-brands" or high quality reloads are much more consistant in accuracy, power, and cleanliness.
A lot of people like FMJ. I shoot it sometimes myself. However, I always purchase Federal, Remington, Hornady, etc...

Will
 
This string was just too juicy for me to resist; I just had to put my .02 cents in .
Firstly 32s&W is a rimmed revolver cartridge and the 32acp which your father in law has requires a rimless cartridge. I would first
tell your father-in -law that you care about him enough to set him straight and then show hum the difference between a rimmed revolver cartridge and a rimless pistol cartridge.As
to cheap military surplus ammo, I wont buy or use that sh~t because it has broken one gun on me already. Cheap mil surplus 7.62x54R
broke the extracter on my type 56 nigant bolt
action rifle and it cost me $30.oo for a new extractor. You never save anything by buying mil surplus crap. It is usually corrosive &
has steel jacketed bullets instead of copper jacketed bullets so that it wears out the barrel of your gun three times faster than copper jacketed and when it is not corrosive it uses a cheap and extreemely dirty burning powder that makes cleaning up your gun three times harder. I would rather spend one or two bucks a box more for good ammo that I can depend on not to jam or break my gun and save
an hour per gun on the clean up time. When you have 10 dirty guns, saving an hour per gun (only spending 20 or 30 min per gun on clean up)adds up to a days work. as to the hollow point vs the 115 gr fmj on the 9 mm
ammo, I use 115gr fmj and not hollow points
because I dont intend to have to ever shoot
anyone and if I ever do, I prefer head & neck shots. Hollow points are generally $5.oo
to 10.oo a box more than 115 fmj and usually have a higher powder (power) level.Hollow points,9mm, are rated for 92% first shot kill
while 115gr fmj are rated from 80 to 86% first shot kill. My experience in 15 years of ccw carry has been never to fire my gun, Thank God.I sincerely hope I never have to. I believe in the best and most accurate pistol
my money can buy me, so I carry a Sig Sauer P226 in 9 mm It is capable of 1.4 inch groups at 25 yards and I shoot it accuratly, I can hit a 8in x 12in target at 100 yards.I can consistantly shoot 3.5 inch freehand standing
groups at 25 yards.This is good enough for me and will get the job done ,I feel. The Taurus pt111 that your father in law bought
is if my memory got it right ,a double action only, one of the worst types of actions ever devised ,in my opionion. I think this because you have to deal with a long hard 12 or 16 pound trigger pull every time you pull the trigger.This long & hard trigger pull does
you the diservice of desturbing your sight allignment and pulling the barrell up off
bullseye for each and every shot. Its about ok for down & dirty shooting where any accuracy is strictly an accidental secondary
consideration. Me, I like to know for sure just exactly where EACH AND EVERY SHOT IS GOING.My sig, being single & double acting,
has the 12 pound long pull for the quick & fast first shot only and automatically changing to single action mode short & light 3 pound trigger pull for the remaining 15 shots.Choosing a firearm is a personal choice
which in the past I have choosen poorly due to lack of information. A cheap gun disturbs
me every time I miss the bullseye and I forget how little the gun cost me, feeling instead that I wasted my money on a piece of sh~t. On the other hand, every time my sig shoots the middle of the ten ring out, I get a warm fuzzy feeling and think it was the best
$675.oo I ever spent. and if the sig does not shoot the middle of the 10 ring out, it is always my fault and never the guns fault.
Sometimes I just have really bad days and cant shoot anything good. So there is my advise from my experience. Excellent Quality Pays for itself every time you use it.Cheap bits your butt every time you have to deal with it.This is true of live in general & not only guns.
 
Ernest2
Just a quick check on my 7.62x54 info. I'fe never heard of steel jacketed rounds, so I may be way off base here. The closest I've ever dealt with is steel core. I thought "steel core" referred to the core of the bullet not the jacket. I pulled one apart recently (cheap Russian mil. surplus) and it had a soft copper jacket enclosing a very hard slug that stuck to my magnet. My Mosin Nagant seems to like it, but has never malfunctioned while using that or any other ammo. The only problems I'fe ever had with it (the ammo) is that it uses corrosive primers, so you have to clean the bore very well to prevent corrosion.

That's the functional side of it. As for accuracy? Well, Lets just say I can't tell if it's the non-adjustable-for-windage sights, the ammo, or (much more likely) the shooter. :)
 
WLM,

What I would do would be to go out and buy a box of the correct ammo. I would then go over to his house and offer to help him load "his" ammo. Play dumb, like your not sure what the problem is. After fumbling around for a little while, tell him that you were curious about the problem you two are having and that you bought some ammo to see if it would work any better. Then bring yours out and load it.

After successfully loading yours, compare the two boxes and announce in a suprised voice, "Oh, I think I see what the problem was!"

This should spare your FIL from feeling foolish and getting defensive.
 
Ernest2,You probably got hold of some 7.62X54 that was made for a Russian machine gun. looks the same, but is loaded a lot hotter.

Good rule for surplus ammo is to only shoot the Russian made Silver or Black tipped ammo.

Both have steel cases and copper washed steel jackets. Silver tip is lead core and black tip is steel core.

The Mosin was designed to shoot this very same ammo, so I can't see it wearing your barrel out prematurely.

The corrosive salts in the primer can easily be neutralized with a little ammonia.
Just run a dry patch down the barrel to brush out the lose stuff. Then run a wet ammonia patch down and wipe the bolt face and chamber. Run another dry patch down the barrel and continue with your normal cleaning routine.

Surplus Russian ammo is about 3 bucks a box. Norma brass cased soft points are 29 bucks a box. You could easily save enough money to buy another Mosin Nagant. I just bought a M44 for less then the cost of three boxes of Norma ammo.



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The new guy.

"I'm totin, this pistol because my dang SKS won't fit in my holster"

[This message has been edited by Jimmie (edited November 16, 1999).]
 
Oops, they both have solid copper jackets.

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The new guy.

"I'm totin, this pistol because my dang SKS won't fit in my holster"
 
jimmie-- I always wondered about that 7.62 x 54 r ammo . It came in a galvinized steel can
6 x 14 x 4 from southern ohio Guns in 1992.
Twenty rounds are wrapped up in brown paper
tied up with a string. The outside of the paper says7.62 next to Chineese charcters,
next line says 53, another Chineese character,last line says 20, with another chineese charcter.The Bullet head is magnetic
material,attracted by a magnet, so probably steel jacketed and is copper colored with a silver tip. The case is non magnetic, probably brass, but the primer looks larger than a standard american large rifle primer.
The headstamp says 19
( ) ----headstamp circle
57
I guess, 1957 Chinese made.Did the chinese make hot machine gun loads? I still have 80 rounds (4 boxes) of this stuff, but I am afraid to shoot it through a bolt for fear of
breaking another extracter at 30.oo a pop.
My friend has a Russian svt 40 semi auto rifle in 7.62 x 54r and I believe that this model was originally made in full auto and well as the semi auto version which he has.
Maybe it would be ok to shot it through his gun? He would be very unhappy if a round got stuck in the chamber because of overcharging
(too much powder) at the chinese factory and broke his extractor.Semi autos want to extract immediately & automatically, so we
would not get an oppertunity to be gentle
with extraction as with a bolt ,once you are warned that the posibility exsists. Maybe the semi auto extracter is made a lot stronger than the spring metal cheaply made (but not cheap to buy)bolt action extracter.

What are your thoughts and advice on this Jimmie?

ernest2
larry
Conn.can opperater
larrysdiscountguns@erols.com
 
http://www.voicenet.com/~danz/MN/am-code1.htm

Ernest2, sorry it took so long to get back.

Here is one of the best ammo decoder pages on the net.

I still won't shoot anything I couldn,t positivly identify. Becaue your right, cheap ammo that tears up your gun is no bargain.



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The new guy.

"I'm totin, this pistol because my dang SKS won't fit in my holster"
 
I'd have my wife talk to him. Maybe he'd be more receptive to a concerned daughter than (what he might perceive as) an intrusive son-in-law...
 
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