technical handgun developments

E

E.T.

New member
As I'm European, I wonder how you guys (American or European) think about the latest evolutions in handguns such as DAO, DA/SA and "safe actions"(Glock) trigger locks, regarding safety and tactical deployment. I also refer to the fuzzy LDA (light double action) of Daewoo, Para-Ordnance and HK's latest P2000.

I'd also appreciate some comments on "plastic" handguns versus all steel or alloy guns.

I own (and shoot) a Walther P99 Military (9x19 mm) and I'm very satisfied with it.
 
DA/SA (trigger cocking for the first shot, auto cocking for successive shots) isn't very new, is it? Weren't there DA/SA pistols such as the Walther PP before WWII?

The trigger system that I find most interesting is the squeeze cocker of the HK P7. It seems to offer an excellent combination of safety, ease of use, and trigger quality. I wonder why it hasn't been imitated.
 
IMHO, I think that light double action triggers like the Walther P99 QA, the HK USP LEM trigger, Paraordance LDA, Kahr etc. are the wave of the future.

Since, again IMHO, the trigger is the most important factor in a gun's accuracy (and subsequent owner satisfaction), simple, easy to shoot, 3.5 to 6 pound triggers without any junk on them like with glock triggers - are the way to go.

I prefer Walthers trigger safety to glocks, which I feel interfers with accuracy. I also think that a gun should come with a manual safety that could be removed (as a varient/option) for those who want it removed.

I like polymer guns for their light weight. I like the grip size options that the Walther P99 has. I also like the light rail that a polymer gun makes possible - though I wish all manufacturers would standardize on one design so that lights like the Insight tech M3 could be switched between guns.

The round in chamber indicator on the Walther P99 is nice as well.
 
E.T., I believe the evolutions in handguns you mention are being driven by bureaucratic notions of safety (DAO on full size service pistols) or accountants. (Plastic is cheaper than metal.)

Bureaucrats feel that there's less chance of their inept policemen having a negligent discharge with a DAO. Accurate shooting certainly CAN be done with a DAO pistol, but it takes more practice, and the bureaucrats who mandated the DAO are unlikely to increase the training budget to provide more practice. I personally see no purpose for DAO on a full size pistol. (Pocket pistols are a different matter.) IMHO, DAO is inferior to SA, DA/SA, or even "safe action." ESPECIALLY when some DAO systems don't even offer "second strike" capability.

Plastic is used in guns primarily as a cost saving measure, but in semi-auto pistols, offers some real advantages in terms of weight, grip options, corrosion resistance, etc. (Perish the thought that the manufacturer would pass on the plastic vs. metal savings to the consumer!)

I think the greatest evolution in autopistol design is the general across-the-board increase in reliability. There are still some poorly engineered or poorly executed designs on the market, and even the most famous makers produce a few "lemons," but generally, today's autopistols are more likely to function reliably than those produced a generation or two back.
 
DA/SA is fine if you've got a pistol with a good DA trigger. That's crucial. The difficulty of shooting the DA first shot has been vastly overblown (again, assuming you are starting with a good DA trigger. I consider the DA trigger on my Beretta Elite II to be a very good DA trigger for a stock gun, if that gives you a point of reference. I also don't find the HK USP DA trigger to be unmanageable, although others here have found fault with it -- not the best, but I can shoot accurately with it for defensive purposes).

The key to DA is a lot of dry firing on a regular basis. I enjoy that sort of practice, so it works for me. A gun owner who rarely takes his gun out of the box would probably be better served by the Para Ordnance LDA or the Glock. Personally, I really, really like Para's LDA. This is the kind of double action I've always wanted for a carry gun, and if Para can prove to me that they've overcome some of their quality control issues, I'll be waiting in line for this one.

DAO is not terrible. The revolver guys have lived with it for a long, long time and managed quite well. Again, it all comes down to the quality of the trigger and your willingness to practice with the gun.

The Glock "safe action" is not nearly as safe as it sounds. Because it's a very light "Double Action", there have been occasions where the trigger and the trigger safety have snagged on something resulting in a discharge, and of course there is no guarding against user stupidity on any gun. It's an innovative system that requires no manipulation of manual safeties under stress, but I suspect it could be made even safer.

Plastic is fine. I was skeptical at first, but it's largely proved itself to me (my USP pretty much convinced me). Supposedly it lasts longer than aluminum frames (and I have two of those as well). Steel is nice if you don't have to carry it all day, since it adds weight and usually, therefore, controlability. And of course, good steel frames are very, very durable if properly cared for.
 
Matt VDW,

of course I know that DA/SA trigger locks aren't very new. What I meant was the tendency of some manufacturers to "invent" new trigger designs while they're claiming that that have invented the "warm water". Is there really a need to render DA/SA obsolete or is this evolution inspired by commercial/political/legal motives and are shooters taking advantage of this ? The same thing for plastic frames.

By the way, HK's "squeeze action" has been imitated, but without great commercial success.

Personally I find the DA/SA striker fired design of my P99, in combination with the decocking button, very interesting but, as we all know, everybody has his own preferences (fortunately) thus contributing to today's variety of handguns
 
I don't like the new developments. That's part of early onset old farts disease.

The DAO makes sense in a pocket gun and when Kahr makes an Mk-P9 it may prove too tempting. But there isn't much wrong with a 1911 or Browning HP and they are easy to hit with.

It is hard for me to get used to plastic frames on pistols.
 
To me, DA/SA is like driving a car with stick shift. You can have more control with it - but it requires more work and practice.

On the other hand, I am lazy (lets just say I like to economize my actions), I prefer the automatic transmition of a Light DAO.
 
It wasn't until I became proficient with DA wheelguns that I started warming up to the idea of a good, smooth DAO trigger.

Really wishing I'd bought that Beretta Centurion slickslide with the liquid-smooth trigger a few years back now instead of making fun of it... :(
 
Matt,

as I already mailed to you, the original idea of placing a squeeze handle in way of the frontstrap goes most probably back to 1908 when Schwarzlose applied this to his pistol. Because it acted only as a grip safety (which could be blocked by means of a catch)this can not be considered as a squeeze cocker.

More recently I found a (small) article in a Dutch fire arms magazine reporting latest handgun developments as showed at the latest IWA (German Shot Show). It stated that a German company has developed a law enforcement pistol with a squeeze cocker in way of the back strap (as could also be seen on the picture from the article). I searched the internet for more info and most probably the manufacturer is "Sommer & Ockenfuss GmbH". They already designed several types of guns and likely have a way with "squeeze cocking" because one of their models (shotgun ?) features a "pump action" by moving the pistol grip back and forward, while pressing a grip safety in way of the back strap, thus unblocking the pistol grip of the gun.

Maybe someone else can tell us more about the latest squeeze cocked pistol of Sommer & Ockenfuss ?
 
I don't remember the particulars. But I can visualize a photograph from an old gun magazine of a Colt 1911 with a backstrap that replaced the grip safty and trigger spring. It was a sqeeze cocking device. Somewhere in the deep dark recesses of my dad's basement are boxes of vintage gun magazines.

Cheers,

ts

BTW the Beretta Cougar is not a new design either.
 
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