Teach me about iron sights

P

Pond James Pond

New member
I keep reading people's comments on this type of sight and that for this application or that and I realise I have no idea which sights are good for extreme accuracy and which for speedy acquisition and so on.

In fact, I don't even know what peep, ghost ring, target, combat sights should even look like.

Got a short tutorial for me?
 
Yes ! In the 1800s when target shooting with handguns started a fellow named E.E.Patridge invented the Patridge sight --square front post, square notch rear !That has become a standard sight. Where did he get the idea ? Bizzare but he actually first asked eye doctors how the eye works !!! I have this sight on my pistols but also on my rifles !! Fast accurate. I like 1/8" front and 1/8" notch.
Another great sight is the GHOST ring . It uses a square front post , I like 1/8" and a thin ring rear with a hole diameter of about 3/16" .That ring is close to the eye so the shooter hardly knows it's there. This will NOT work for handguns as the sight must be close to the eye. The eye automatically centers to the ring. It is fast and accurate !!
As to the glowing sights so popular today , I hate them as the sight picture will be different depending on whether the sight is in the shade or sun .The difference we found in metallic silhouette matches , on a typical M29 is two clicks at 50 yds ! :)
 
How are a peep and ghost ring different, then?

It seems the Patridge sight is what a VZ58 has (as with my SP-01 and Redhawk), whilst my old AR had a ring at the rear, although not so close to the eye, IIRR.
 
The sight picture (and target) with an aperture sight is much harder
to acquire in hunting situations in a low light/woods situation.

By removing the disc from the aperture sight, you create a
'ghost ring' aperture sight and get much more light and game vision.

The target rear sight aperture on my M-16 is unusable for most any application other than target work.

Most all Winchester bolt peep and Lyman and Marble's tang sights feature a removable aperture disc.

Just let your eye do the work of centering the front sight on the target.

JT
 
Center the top of a flat-post front sight. If the front sight tapers and is topped by a round bead, center the bead.

I once had a Schutzenfest rifle. 30" barrel, .22 rimfire. The rear sight was a 1.5" shield with a pinhole. The front sight was a round circle with a small hole.
 
Target shooting with handguns started as soon as there was such a thing as a handgonne. That'd be the 14th Century.
E.E. Patridge invented his sight in the 1890's.
Anyway, a peep sight is what you see on current battle rifles regardless of the actual design of the thing.
A ghost ring is the same thing but with a bigger hole(called an aperture). They are designed for speed. The front sight's design/style makes no difference. Best used on slug shooting shotguns. Mind you, some older rifles, like the No. 4 Lee-Enfield, use a similar rear sight as a battle sight(aka a combat sight) but may also have a finer, adjustable, aperture as well.
Target sights can be peeps but with a smaller hole, finer adjustments and usually a thinner front blade.
For example, U.S. M1 Rifle/M-14 National Match sights have a .0595" or .0520 diameter aperture with a .062" wide front sight blade. Standard blade is .072" wide. The standard rear sight is adjustable to 1 MOA per click. The NM sight is .5 MOA.
 
I once had a Schutzenfest rifle. 30" barrel, .22 rimfire.
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I have a old Mossberg 44US trainer that has a target style peep similar to that (~1" OD with a small aperture) and a neat hooded front that has 4 different sights to choose from two square posts of different widths a post that simulates a bead and a aperture front.

man is the eye good at putting a circle in a circle in a circle, I can easily shoot sub 1/2" groups at 50 yards with that dang thing.
 
Peep sights have a circular aperture as the rear sight. This aids in precision and more natural vertical aim, as we tend to naturally center the front sight and target within that circle (compared to open sights like on most pistols).

Ghost rings are essentially large aperture peep sights. They are quicker to use, allow more light through (useful in darker areas), but are less precise (as you have a much larger circle to center your front sight in).

Target sights generally have small apertures, as speed and low light capabilities are less important than precision.

Combat sights, in the American tradition, are a middle ground between ghost rings and target sights. The M16/M4 sights often have two apertures, a larger one for fast shooting, and a smaller one for distance use.
HK sights use a rotating cylinder with multiple apertures (and sometimes an open notch for close range work).
 
Iron sights are any sights that aren't optical sights.

Open sights are any type of iron sight where the target is not encircled by the rear sight. Open sights are typically "post in notch" setup, but there are some other variations. The key is that the target is visible above the sights, not encircled by them.

Hooded front sights are sometimes encountered--usually the hood is there to protect the front sight, or to eliminate issues related to uneven lighting of the front sight. A hooded front sight is not considered to be an aperture sight.

The finer the notch and the smaller the post, the more precise open sights are and the harder/slower it is to acquire a sight picture.

Express sights, for dangerous game, usually have a very wide V notch so that finding the front sight is very quick and easy. Obviously in that case, carefully aligning the sights for a precision shot is very difficult, or maybe not possible at all.

There are some variants which have a wide notch with a much smaller notch in the bottom of the sight. These sights typically have a bead front sight--a round "bead" on a thinner post. This allows the shooter to rapidly acquire the sights for quick shots by placing the bead in the wide notch or to precisely align the sights by placing the bead in the small notch (sometimes referred to as "drawing a fine bead") when maximum accuracy is desired.

Another variant of open sights is the buckhorn sight. In this sight, the rear sight has projections that curve up around the notch like horns. This creates a sight picture where the front sight and the target are mostly enclosed by the rear sight. Typically buckhorn sights have a smaller notch in the bottom of the sight as described above.

Since, when dealing with open sights, the shooter needs to precisely align the front and rear sights, it is necessary that the rear sight be far enough from the shooter's eye to allow it to be in focus. An open sight mounted on the rear of a rifle receiver, for example, would be so close that precise sight alignment would be impossible. This is why rear open sights are mounted relatively far forward on a rifle.

Aperture sights are iron sights but are not open sights. The rear sight (and sometimes the front sight) encircle the target. The shooter looks through holes in the sights to see the target.

Peep sights usually have a relatively small rear aperture--sometimes the aperture is adjustable to allow for use in a wide range of lighting conditions. With a small aperture, the front sight and the target can both be in focus due to the pinhole effect. Also, the pinhole effect tends to minimize issues with the shooter's vision. However, a very small aperture requires very good lighting and can make it difficult to rapidly acquire the sights.

Performance in less than ideal lighting requires a larger aperture and by going to a larger aperture you lose precision and the pinhole effect is less helpful.

Note that the rear aperture is so close to the eye that it is blurred. The shooter shouldn't focus on the rear aperture, only on the target and the front sight. Because it's not necessary to focus on the rear aperture, the rear aperture can be placed very close to the shooter's eye allowing a longer sight radius. Sight radius is the distance between the rear sight and the front sight. A longer sight radius minimizes the effects of small misalignments in the sight picture.

The largest aperture sights are called ghost ring sights. They are so large and the ring is so thin that all the shooter can see is a "ghost" of the ring. They are usually very fast and can be used in poor lighting, but don't offer the precision of a smaller aperture. Also, because of the large aperture size, there is no benefit from the pinhole effect.

There is a sort of hybrid of open/aperture sights. This is when an aperture sight is mounted so far forward on a rifle (or on a pistol) that they are no longer blurred. In this case they act like an open sight. The front and rear sight now must be precisely aligned as in an open sight and the aperture is generally so large that there is no pinhole effect.

A little more information on iron sights.

Move the rear sight to the same direction you wish the point of impact to move on the target. Move the front sight in the opposite direction you wish the point of impact to move on the target. FORS (Front Opposite Rear Same)

Strong lighting from one side will tend to make the gun shoot away from the light. Unless the front sight is hooded/shaded, the light will make the lighted side of the sight appear larger to the shooter which tends to make the shooter misalign the sights slightly in the direction away from the light.
 
I found many years ago that I do far better with a shallow V and bead than with a flat post and square notch. Unfortunately, this combination is often expensive and is less robust so I just do what I can with what's on the gun.
In my youth, I did some very fine range work with a peep rear/aperture front and peep/post in the field, but I no longer have the eyes for this level of precision and generally use magnifying optics these days.
 
The VZ58 has what would commonly be referred to as a leaf sight or informally as a Russian sight. They tend to block out a lot of the target, restrict cheek placement and aren't incredibly fast to acquire.

Most Ars have what would be called a peep sight, though I have seen some with ghost rings (night sights in particular). Most modern battle rifles have some form of peep sight. With the right aperture, they balance precision and speed well. Bigger apertures are faster, smaller apertures more precise (generally)

Combat sights can mean a lot of things but are generally aimed at being easy to acquire very quickly. Might include ghost rings, hexagon or diamond rear sights, gutter/trench sights, "lollipop" sights etc. They tend to be focused on target acquisition in a wide range of lighting circumstances within shorter distances. (HK notes that the open sight on their sight drum is to be used at dusk, under artificial lights, or while firing from moving vehicles)

The eye naturally does a good job at aligning an object in the center of a circle, especially two concentric circles. Some competition iron sights have an aperture both in front and rear where you center the front circle in the back circle and center the bullseye in both. Sounds crazy but I know people who swear by it
 
Just my thoughts. I am an Iron Sight shooter. Be it rifle or pistol, The size of the target has a lot to do with getting good accuracy. I can shoot at a 25 yard bullseye with my 2" Smith and Wesson 637 Revolver and hit it. I can even get a group. The target is a 100 yard round black bull rifle target. When shooting Irons on my rifle with a peep and globe, the rear sight is adjusted for light by changing the size if the Iris, OR sliding the sight back and forth on the grooved reciever. For offhand the front Apature is changed or adusted to be about 1.5 X the size of the black round bull. For off the bench, the apature can be just a little bigger than the black round bull. I have also shot small black round bull with a large apature maybe 8x the size of the bull and still get good groups.

I shoot scope and Irons (peep and globe) in sporter Rifle every week, On normal days, Scope score is a little better, but both seeem to track my shooting for that day, so great scores for both or not so good scores for both is the norm. Scope is usually the better score by a few points. This week Irons was 276, Scope was 276. Out of 300.
I am the only one out of 30? shooters using Irons.

David
 
Be it rifle or pistol, The size of the target has a lot to do with getting good accuracy.
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Good point. Optical sights can help you see the target better, but you will get little to no help from iron sights. If you can't see the target or have trouble seeing the target, don't expect good results from iron sights.
Scope score is a little better, but both seeem to track my shooting for that day, so great scores for both or not so good scores for both is the norm.
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That's been pretty much my experience. With decent lighting and a clear aiming point, scores should be similar for anything other than benchrest where extreme precision is the name of the game. When the lighting is bad or the aiming point is hard to see, the scope will win.
 
Some great info in this thread.

Nobody mentioned fiber optic sights. I put a set on my Marlin Guide Gun. Put the red dot between the two green dots. Love it.

Also, it was not mentioned how to use iron sights. I use the method that keeps the desired point of impact directly on top of the front sight. In other words, I don't cover the intended target with the sight. I keep the exact place I want the bullet to go in view at all times.

Ghost ring systems never worked for me.

I have a Peep sight on an old Blue Streak pellet gun, that combo is scary accurate.

I have the square front post, square rear notch on a German made rifle. Very easy to use.
 
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