Tactical Lights... The Discussion Is Now

J

Joseph

New member
I had the following dialog with George Hill during the recent thread on "drawing down".

George had approached a BG messing with his car late at night, and approached with a handgun and a flashlight. I queried him, as follows, with his response:

"If you suspected the guy was armed and/or dangerous, wouldn't walking up to him, without cover, and giving him a target (your flashlight) to shoot at, put you at unecessary risk? (I've thought about those ads where the little woman is hiding behind her big man who has a light attached to his gun. If I was the BG intent on doing harm, I'd shoot for the light, seems to me.)"

"Tactical Lights are a whole other ball of wax... Thats a discussion for another time."

Well, since we seem to be asking questions about cheapest ammo, and best gun, etc., etc., seems like a good time for this issue. Let's have some fun.

Welcome all back from holidays and Y2K. Let's go shooting.

Roon
 
Tactical lights and flashlights are two totally different animals. In the scenario you described, you would not approach the BG with the light on, you would approach in darkness, and preferrably silence. Once you are close enough to take aim and order him to drop his weapon, you would shine the light in his eyes and begin giving him instructions loudly and clearly. The light will do two things - allow positive identification of your subject including an accurate appraisal of the threat involved, and temporarily blind and disorient him, giving you the tactical edge. It will ruin the BG's night vision, and cause the "deer in the headlights" effect. Think of it as a "battery-powered flash-bang". This is why tactical lights are so much brighter than flashlights, but aren't designed to be left on for any extended period of time. I think it would be a good idea to have both types of light available, but they do have very different uses.
 
I agree that there would be a tremendous difference in creating disorientation using a flash-bang rather than a flashlight.

The device advertised with the "little lady" being protected by her "big man" is quik2see, and they state in their ad that the "flashlight not included". I think that this could create a very dangerous situation.

A better situation for me would be a remote controlled light positioned to both illuminate the BG and draw his attention away from your defensive position.
 
Remote light nice idea but unlikely "at least for me. As was said flashlights are made so you don't fall over stuff in the dark. Tac lights put out a lot of light for a short time. A good light can stop a fight right now. The person the light is on can't see "or even try to look at" the person with the light. When you have your gun in the other hand if the BG decides to fight just pull the trigger. I have had a fair number of people say they can't see anything for a few minutes ofter I "shine" them in the eyes. BUT you need to practice with this and understand in some cases the light will do you more harm then good. It might be helpful in court "if deadly force has to be used" that you made sure of the threat and didn't "fire wildly into the dark at a sound" Remember loss of night vision will affect you even behind the light if you shine it on reflective material.
 
I think tac lights are a great idea as long as they are properly used. If left on to search, then you just become a target. When used to identify a target and to blind then I think they are great. I would rather not fire on someone, if I wasn't 100% sure who it was.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>If you have one of those SuerFire Tac Lights you will have an amazing advantage over the bad guys.[/quote]

I saw this today and it reminded me of this thread.

Only a couple of comments came across. Does that mean everyone agrees that tac lights are a good thing.

Or a bad thing.

Or just don't know or care.

If they're just a playtoy, like laser beams, or something that should be added to the defensive toolbox, I, for one, would like to know.

Roon
 
Considering I own 4, I think they're great. I alwyas carry a sure-fire 6z, as does my wife. Also have them mounted on my ar15 and mossberg 590. They have a very disorienting affect on people. If you carry a gun I think you should carry a small flashlight and train with it. Later, Byerly
 
I carry a small cheapie even though I don't carry a gun (can't here.) I also keep it handy by the bed. I understand the argument about making yourself a target but I reason that if I start the light off in his eyes and use it only to identify, it shouldn't be too dangerous. Certainly, it must be WAY safer than firing the gun if you aren't sure what's there? And if you can't see it you aren't sure, period.
The only way it should make you a target if you only use it for short times in the BG's eyes would be if there's another BG you didn't notice. While possible, chances are he doesn't need the light if you're concentrating on his friend, does he?

Let me know if there are any glaring holes in this logic, because I've never tested it.
:)

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Don

"Its not criminals that go into schools and shoot children"
--Ann Pearston, British Gun Control apologist and moron
 
I am gaining interest in flashlights. They are great tools (not to mention toys). They are more likely to be used for everyday than "tacticle" situations where a gun must be drawn. Considering the fact that a man just isn't always forewarned of danger to allow time to go get a bright tac light, I think that one should be on ones person whenever leaving the house after dark.

Last week, a car passed so close to my sweetheart as she was exiting the roadside door of the truck that I saw that I needed a brighter light. My little 4AAA Double Barrel is a great design and brighter than the AA lights, but even with the light shined at the windshield of the oncomming car on the dark road, he didn't attempt to get away from the very edge of the berm. She was wearing black and did not wait for me to come around to open the door for her. WWWheewww!!! That was close!

Problem: Tac. lights take lithium batteries or take a rechargable power pack and cost a fortune. Hense, they are not used by many for everyday use and are oftentimes left behind when needed. After all, how many want to wear a hand gun, knife, maybe a collapsable baton or pepper spray, flashlight (for everyday use) AND a tacticle light! I'd like too, but it is difficult to conceal all of those necessary tools of the trade. When Spring/summer comes it w/be even harder to conceal.

I'm trying to come up w/a solution to the problem. The Energizer Double Barrel (8AA)model. Its reasonably slim and puts out lots of usable light. Halogen/xenon bulb puts out a decent (not perfect) bright spot for close range. Also a clean area flood to asses the area for other threats while identifying the potential BG. Its long enough past my hand to make use of it as a short baton. Therefore kills two birds w/one light(stone). I'm trying to find the brightest 4.5-6V bi-pin possible for to replace the one that came with the light. It runs great w/ AA NiCds too. If anyone has a suggestion please let me know.

BTW, the silent momentary/always on button placement on the side is the best that I've seen for allowing the flashlight hand to offer normal supporting grip to gun.

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"But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip; and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." -Jesus Christ (Luke 22:36, see John 3:15-18)
 
My 8 yo and I were eating at a Mexican restaurant tonight. He had his Mag Light 2 D cell which I had just made up for him. I had installed a Carley xenon lamp (cat. # 712) in it.

Up close, shined on an interior wall perhaps 5 feet away, the Mag Light and a Sure Fire 6P were about the same. Shined on an exterior wall 15 feet away, the Sure Fire was virtually non visible compared with the tightly focused Mag Light. I dug a Sure Fire 9P out of my pack; same results. I pulled a 3 D cell Mag Light out of my pack (equipped with a Carley xenon lamp); much brighter than the 2 D Mag Light.

The quasi Fresnel lens of the Sure Fire lacks the true focusing ability of the Mag Light. The xenon Carley lamp turns the Mag Light into a high intensity light that will last 10 to 12 hours with alkaline cells.

Sure Fire lights are very useful in situations where you probably wouldn't have a Mag Light due to the size and weight. In all other situations, they are inferior, IMHO.

Hope this helps, Walt
 
Hmm.

Remote-controlled lights are bulky at best. At worst, they're a fixed object. Remember: Murphy hates you. Personally. That fixed light won't be where you need it, when you need it.

A colleague of mine was playing with a Photon light at the office the other day--good light output for the size and handy as all get out.

I like to have a light-source with me if there is a chance that I'll wind up somewhere dark. To me, a regular Maglight is too big and obtrusive for everyday carry or plainclothes security. So, that leaves me with either a Taclight or a MiniMag light for a light source. And I don't like the MiniMags much.
To me, it's not so much a matter of tactics, as it is that I hate working in the dark.

LawDog
 
Just about every cop has one, but shoe me where they are USED in real videos of real shootings. I have two on tape and in both cases the light hits the ground rather quickly. As for identifying the target, that is seldom realistically an issue. At least when I was involved in a shooting I was never baffled or confused about who was trying to kill me. Makes you wonder how we did it before "tactical" flashlights and all the "drills" and "positions" they want us to learn now. Must have been a bloodbath back then. I just don't remember it.
 
OK, I'm stupid about this stuff. Zip experience with the "new stuff."

When I just want to see stuff (non-threatening) in the dark, I use a MiniMag (2XAA) actually made by Snap-On, as it's got the push button (rather than twist the head bit) like a big MagLite & it's a one-handed op.

When I need to spot something, I use a 3XD MagLite set on spot. If I beam this thing in my own eye (when feeling irresponsible, etc. ;)), it seems plenty bright enough. Too, it appears to illuminate plenty enough for distances way beyond what would normally considered self defense distances. Too, if nothing else, it seems to make a pretty handy club if needed.

Am I missing something? I know zip about Surefires, etc. Are they super-compact/extra bright or mountable? What's the deal?

Used to think the old Kel-Lites were state of the art ....
 
Although your state law MAY allow for the THREAT of deadly force to protect your property (car), WHY would you approach him? Stay back, behind cover/concealment, get the local LEO's on the cell phone, and THEN MAYBE issue a verbal challenge, if it appears it's necessary to save your auto from imminent departure!
The practical use for the taclight in a LETHAL defensive situation will come AFTER you've drawn your weapon, If your able to use it to disorient the attacker to your advantage. In a non-lethal action, a blast of bright light coupled with a blast of OC spray would be QUITE disconcerting! Hopefully it will give you time to split and be the FIRST one to contact the authorities.
 
I like tactical lights...

Being able to see the target in darkness is a good thing. Proper technique must be ingrained, and that means practice.

This is why SWAT teams, LEOs, and the lion's share of tactical and defensive trainers use and advocate lights.

I understand that in "low" light, often times lights are not necessary for defensive situations.

I understand that in a hurry, there are more presing matters at hand- like survival.

I know that it is feasable to get rounds on target using muzzle flash techniques- though you must first know were to shoot for this to be of any consequence.

Erik

Oh, in most places your property is forfeit to the bad guy as you cannot use leathal force to protect it. Call the police or sheriff's department.
 
Tac lights are great. Once you use one you will never go back.

If you buy batteries wisely you can get them rather cheap. Botach has them on sale right now for just over $2 a piece!!! An hour of burn time is probably a lot more than you think too. I use my tac light for everything, including looking for my keys around the house etc, every day, and my batteries last months.
I got the Sure Fire 3p recently because it is very small and only takes one lithium battery to operate for one hour. Therefore I can use it more without feeling guilty. I also sometimes carry a little Photon light which puts out plenty of light when I don't want to use my tac light.

The amount of light a Sure fire 6z puts out is enough to seriously blind a person in the darkness. Try one out and you will see a marked difference from any other pocket light. They are not even comparable. The white light the Sure Fire 6z puts out lets you positivly identify everything with no spots in the beam and it puts out as much light as a car headlight.

I went to a gun mounted light for general defense, and it is also a good thing. Only needing one hand to work the light and gun and the other free is very helpful in apprehending people as well as feeling your way around a dark room. You just have to experience it to appreciate it. The mounted tac light is more of a tactical hunting tool than a flashlight. You can use it to indirectly light up a room by just pointing it at the ceiling, or you can use it like a laser light and know that the gun is going to hit wherever the tight beam is shining. It can be used to blind the opponent, and is used NOT to walk around with your gun casting a beam, but as a tool where most of the time you keep it off, until you see a shape you want to identify, then you flash the light. If it is your agressor you light up, you assault his eyes with the light and his ears with your voice and usually that is enough. If not, you have a very good sight picture and very big advantage against a surprised and confused and blind opponent.
I am far from an expert on how to use this thing, but there is a reason that the professionals do. They really are a very useful tool. I hope to see some classes or books out sometime on the techniques of proper use of this tool.
 
OK guys...after reading all this and trying out my friend's USP with the tac light I'm left wanting a little more info...I've checked Sure-Fire's sight and they don't have a mount listed for my Ruger KP90...any suggestions on where to look...thanks in advance for any suggestions...

G

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'When I was a very small boy, very small boys talked to me...Now that we've gown up together, they're afraid of what they say...I guess that's the price that we all pay when valued destiny comes to nothing...'
 
Unless you know exactly where the BG is, and exactly where to shine the blinding light, a light still is a good target. From some very limited experience, it has always seemed better to me before entering a dark room to simply reach around the corner and turn on the lights. At least this puts everyone even.

Of course, that does not allow one to use a new "tactical" play toy, or to jump out in the middle of the doorway holding a pistol sideways, like they do in Hollywood.

Jim
 
If you're a cop, a tactical light is a must have. Heck, even if you ain't it's well worth the money. Shining it in the attacker
s eyes may just give you that split second chance you need to get to that gun under all that outerwear!
 
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