Tactical (Home/Self Defense) Practice

Dave T

New member
A good friend and I were talking over coffee and the subject of firearms and training came up (like it does every time). He is now of the opinion that an AR-15 is probably a better choice for a home defense long gun than a shotgun because it is almost impossible to practice close, self defense type scenarios at public ranges.

We used to do this on steel targets at the club we belong to but they won't let members use the club's steel because too many people shoot rifles at them, punching holes in the expensive steel and ruining it for use in matches.

It got me to thinking, how else can someone practice with a shotgun for social intercourse and urban renewal? Anyone got any suggestions?

By the way, part of his argument is that without fairly regular practice most people won't be able to handle a 12 gage well. And, don't tell me you can't miss with a shotgun. I trained/qualified a 400 man (person?) department with shotguns and I know people can miss. Been there, done that!
 
There's old threads here on training, Dave. And, NO firearm works well w/o regular practice on the owner's part.

Back when I instructed, I found that the folks that shotgunned the most were the best. Game seems unimportant,a trapshooter who burns off a case a week will do better than a hunter who shoots 2 boxes a season. The difference is familiarization.

Shoot some Trap, Skeet and/or Sporting Clays. If you can bust a little 4" clay disc moving at 30-50 MPH and then do another inside a second or two, moving in a different direction, you have sight acquisition and repeat shots down.

I left Tuscon in 1966, when U of A and I decided to part. At that time, informal shooting was simply a matter of driving 30 minutes out of town and finding a suitable backstop. I'm sure it's more complicated now, but you should be able to find a shootin' spot.

There's bound to be a "Practical" shooting association around you. Make some inquiries and find out where and when they meet.

HTH...
 
Dave McC,

I am sure you were trying to help but get real. If I show up at the local trap and skeet range with my M3S90 with its extended magazine and ghost ring rear sight I will be asked to leave. If wing shooting is so benifitial, why didn't I fire a signle shot at a clay bird during the whole week at Gunsight's shotgun class.

And, the range I spoke of which prohibits its members from shooting steel is the practical range/club in this area. Not everyone wants to compete. My friend just wants to practice with his social shotgun.
 
Skeet and the games builds familiarity with your weapon. You need time with the gun in your hands. Besides, schools like Gunsite are only just part of the picture. Do everything you can weapons related and realize that none of them are perfect representations of real life. Hunt, go to schools, skeet, sporting clays, 3 gun matches, ect... Learn a martial art. Play some paintball. You will see what it is like to have people shoot back. Personally, playing paintball has done more for my defensive skills than everything else combined. You will develop an appreciation for cover that you never knew could exist.

Do it all. Use what is helpful. Ignore what is not. Don't limit your training.
 
Practice....
You do not fire at clays at Gunsite because you probably took a tactical class of some sort. Generally these classes are more focused on teaching you the basics of tactics and expect you to get out and shoot on your own. Sure, they will have you shoot maybe 3 or 4 hundred rounds but they are mostly looking at your form and tactics.
There are quite a few different levels of expertise at those classes and it would be a daunting task to attempt to get everyone up to speed at busting a moving clay. I would bet that while you were there they stressed the importance of practice, practice, practice.If your local range will not let you shoot, find another range.
I have a friend who retired to AZ and he does as Dave once did. He goes into the desert and blasts stuff.
I shoot handtrap all the time with my HD 870. No one at the range has ever asked me to leave.
I will be shooting some Sporting Clays in a couple weeks with the same SG. I doubt I will be asked to leave from that event either. Find another range.
I just finished my first tactical school this past weekend and my constant practice "shooting at clay birds" was very helpful. I was one of the best shots there, especially the fast multiple target stuff, and I credit that to my familiarity with my 870.
Mike
 
Are there no IPSC or IDPA two or three gun matches in your area? Even at our local steel matches sometimes they have a shotgun side match.

Justin
 
Maybe I missed something, but why is an AR-15 better than a shotgun if you can't practice close-in self defense type scenarios??? That makes no logical sense.

I have shot skeet at my local range with My REM 870 Marine Magnum with an extended magazine. My buddy and I got a few laughs from the die hard skeet shooters with their very expensive guns. I mentioned that we weren't skeet buffs but that we wanted to work on target acquisition, tracking, and of course proper cycling of the action under stress for the purpose of developing skills for home defense. At least a couple of the guys laughing at us admitted to having done the same thing.

One thing we did not do that I have seen others do is to load up the gun with as many shells as it will hold. You go through the skeet course and whether it be a single or double, you shoot until you hit the bird. The guys I saw doing this took it very seriously and pity the poor sucker who manages to empty his gun without hitting the birds. People who missed got some severe grief, but the prospective training benefit was great. It was teaching the guys to be able to cycle under the pressure of bystanders and the short time in which a bird could be hit.

We were loaded with Rem 2 3/4 shells, HEAVY DOVE load. Out of an 18" barrel, you don't have the greatest distance shots in the world, but it is still fun and good for skills development.

You can also work on things such as turn and shoot drills such that when you say PULL! a bird is launched and you have to turn, see, acquire, and fire. Always keep your muzzle pointed in a safe direction. Or, you can letting the person sending the birds send them in a seemingly random manner and not the typical skeet manner. Shooting birds launched from a trap wobbler (random height and direction launched) from the side and not behind (as is typcial for trap) also works on seeing, acquiring, and then firing.

By the way, for short range encounters, a shotgun is really hard to beat as a defensive tool, especially for home defense. The reality of it is that most situations only allow for just a few shots and sometimes only one. If you were only going to get to shoot one shot and hit your target, would you rather it be a load of buckshot or a single round of .223? A load of buckshot is pretty devastating by comparison.
 
Couple Points....

Trap Range - Went to Philly last year and did the NRA LEO Handgun/Shotgun Instructors Course - morning of the last day was on a trap range with duty SG's. a truely humbling experience.....

Then did a good drill for accessing and shooting, half class lined on firing point,starting at far left. First is contact officer, next two to the right are backup 1 & 2.

Contact calls pull, must shoot, if hits, still in the game. #1 then becomes contact and next two to right become backup 1&2....

If contact officer missies, backup one must shoot, if b/u1 hits, the contact is eliminated.
If b/u1 misses, contact still in game, b/u2 has option to shoot (not the best coarse to take) -if b/u2 misses he is eliminated and b/u1 & contact are still in game. (ya I know it sounds confusing, just imagine howmuch when the contact officer is on the far right (up to ten people away) and the b/u officers are on the left.....


OK back to the true question posted......

Empty plastic jugs, 1 gal. or smaller, hung by string to replace the steel. (less reseting too)

We use this for probably half the SG stages with our IDPA 2-3 Gun Matches.
 
Dave T, never been to Gunsite, but I believe the idea behind the school thing is to offer something not available elsewhere. Clay games can be shot almost anywhere.

Be advised that every instructor school the Gummint sent me to included some kind of clay shooting, mostly informal and low gun.A riot bbled 870 is a blast and a half for this with 8s.

And, regular shooters at the Geezer League on Wednesdays include some Sikhs with a long magged, black all over Mossie. Other shooters with short bbled "Serious" shotguns also show up, with no prejudice shown.

Frankenstein, my overpublicized parts gun, is not welcome at PGC, they have a silly rule about 23" or longer bbls only. Otherwise, it's been to maybe 5 trap, skeet and SC ranges with no probs.
 
First of all, thanks to each of you who posted and offered suggestions. I didn't mean to sound like I didn't appreciate Dave McC's help.

I guess you folks live in a more tollerant area than I do. The one big Trap & Skeet range here is rumored to be pretty conservative. I've been told they look sideways at you and some will ask you to leave if you show up with riot/home defense shotguns. Knew a couple cops who were trap shooters and wanted to shoot with their department issue 870s just for fun. They got through most of a round when some big shot on the board of directors came up and said they were given the skeet shooters a bad image, please leave.

My friend is not into competition, just wants to practice with his home defense shotgun. Three gun matches are not a solution for him. Likewise, it has become increasingly harder and harder to "go out in the desert" and shoot around here. Developments have taken over most of the surrounding area and a lot of the rest is private or "restricted" government land. Guess you guys don't know shooting is dangerous and must be restricted (gaging smiley face goes here).

As to the AR-15 vs 12 gage. Both my friend and I know the shotgun is more versitle and at close range more powerful in terms of stopping an assialant. His thinking is that you can practice with an AR-15 on paper targets and most ranges which won't allow shotguns at steel will let you set up silhouettes at 15, 25 and 50 yards and shoot at them with an AR.

I just thought this guy had an interesting question and problem. Wanted to hear what others think. Thanks again.
 
I don't shoot steel targets with my home defense Remington 870. I built my own IPSC target stands from wood and shoot cardboard IPSC targets, setting up anywhere from 1-4 targets are various distances, from contact range to 25 yards. Targets are easily patched with grocery bag paper. I train with inexpensive birdshot mostly, usually at distances under 10 yards and my shot patterns are tight enough that the targets can withstand multiple hits before needing to be patched. I do all this on the handgun range at my local (outdoor) gun club.

However the best practice is dry-practice at home between range outings using dummy cartridges. The dummy cartridges allow one to build manipulation skills. I also have a Remington 870 red gun that I use for situation training (moving through my home, "engaging" IPSC targets placed throughout the house, engaging family members, who train with me, at "gun point" without the risk of using my actual shotgun, etc.).

If I can't train the way I want to, then I try to figure out an alternative means. A little creativity can go a long way!

Cheers!
 
"My friend is not into competition, just wants to practice with his home defense shotgun. Three gun matches are not a solution for him. "

Actually, it is a solution. No one said he has to "compete". You only asked where he could get "practice". Three gun matches *are* a solution for him -- he just goes to the matches to get practice, not to compete.

Example: guy at a local 3 gun match last year. He always stays at least 6 feet behind cover (minimizes ricochet risk, weapon retention problems and also allows him optimal use of cover). On one stage, the "shooting box" is directly behind a barricade. He shoots the stage from 6 feet behind the barricade, incurring a procedural penalty for *each* shot taken from outside the box -- I think that's something like 20 points down for each shot! He didn't care about the score -- he wasn't "competing" but he was getting good home defense "practice".

Justin
 
Dave T, no offense taken.

Shawn and Justin have good points. I never saw a "Practical" match that wasn't good training. For LEOs, that's the reason for staging same.

Dummy(Inert) shotgun rounds are easy to make or find. Anyone with a shotshell reloader can knock some off in a twinkling.
 
I find 'competing' to be useful for 'practice' for 'real world' scenarios...not because of the game, the targets, the rules, etc. etc. etc., but I see how terrible my aim and gun handling is under STRESS instead of slow, aimed fire at an indoor lane. More humbling than anything else.
 
If you are not in a situation where you are against the clock, another shooter, or where someone is shooting back (paintballs or simunitions) - you are missing out and your training is seriously incomplete.

You have to have stress once you have the basics of weapons manipulation. Do not kid yourself.
 
Fine tuning what Dave3006 said a bit, Ayoob is really big into adding some sort of pressure to practice shooting to do anything to add to the difficulty of the shoot as might happen in real life. It is not a bad plan at all and adding simunitions or paintball training is also a grand idea, but there is a huge learning hurdle in paintball and simunitions. That is, they don't offer any sort of real negative results if you get hit. When the paintball craze started many years ago, a Vietnam Vet was asked about his participation in paintball wars and didn't it cause him flashbacks and stuff like that. His response was great. He noted that with bullet and bombs, things like trees break open and split, there is the smell of burning and people crying out. In paintball, the rounds just spatter on the trees and people cry out in disgust over being hit, not because their insides are now all outside.

Paintball or simunitions, if properly done, will help, no doubt about that, but are also seriously lacking as well in terms of introducing shooters to the real dangers of fighting. A local campus guy suggested paintball be played naked and that would motivate players to be much more safety conscious and calculated in their movements. Then it becomes a game of pain. Maybe so...
 
Rifles for home defense

Maybe it's just me, but it seems that Americans tend to forget history rather easy. Now, back in the 1800's and early 20th century, a lot of folks kept rifles for home defense because they were more versatile. In rural areas, rifles served the purpose of hunting and for defense. Even in cities of the early 20th century, most homes and apartment houses were made of brick (due to disasterous fires in the late 1800's, most cities wanted brick used) and so overpentration was not the issue it is today. However, in the early 1960's, new building materials came about that were lighter, cheaper (key word), and still almost as fire-resistant as brick. However, these new materials are not as bullet-resistant than brick. And in Southern California, the climate allowed for less insulation between walls. Even handgun bullets are not very safe in the apartments of today. And, so, that's when the shotgun came to be suggested for city-dwellers. At that time, loads of #6 or #4 birdshot were suggested for folks with real flimsy drywalled apartments. Even with lighter buckshot, such as #1 or even #4, the penetration will not be as drastic as a high-powered rifle bullet. Another reason the shotgun was advised is because it was allegedly easier to master than a handgun. That is debatable, but there is some merit to that theory. As far as overpenetration, a high-powered rifle bullet can penetrate several apartments before stopping. Therefore, how can any rifle be suggested as a "one-size-fits-all" homne defense weapon? A rifle might be fine for locales like an isolated farm in Bent Twig, Arkansas. But I certainly cannot see it as a choice in a 300+ apartment building in Los Angeles that was built in the 1970s. The argument is that because police use .223 rifles, that justifies civilian use. That is not a proper argument. In California, for example, the police may use batons, blackjacks, and electric weapons for a less-lethal method to subdue suspects and these weapons are felonies for an average civilian to possess without proper registration. Weapons such as blackjacks are simply illegal period in many states. Further, police are justified in using deadly force in situations that a civilian may not be. And police also use armored vehicles (even tanks and APCs if one looks at Waco) and automatic weapons that civilians cannot possess. And also, once police are using a .223 rifle, it is often because they are, or might possibly be, facing suspects who are heavily armed with similar weapons and so need to neutralize that threat as efficiently as possible. However, that, in and of itself, does not justify the replacement of shotguns with .223 carbines in every police cruiser. The lessons of the 1920s and 1930s shows that city police armed with Thompson submachine guns and BAR fully-automatic rifles also injured quite a number of innocent bystanders. True, those weapons were neccesary at that time among some special police details, but certainly not among the rank-and-file. And this is why shotguns were chosen for the police cruisers.

Another point .223 advocates make is that it is allegedly less penetrative than heavy 00 buckshot loads and .357 magnum rounds. Oh? Years back, we heard these same advocates claim that the .308 has nothing really over the .223 and that the .223 is just as good. We all know the penetrative power of a .308 round. So, how, then, is the .223 at once adequate for military use to include defeating the skin of a vehicle but does not peetrate drywall? We hear it is all due to ammo selection. John Q. Citizen, told to use a .223 for home defense, is going to buy the ammo he finds at his local sporing goods store which will either be FMJ ball or high-velocity hunting ammo, both of which will go right through a man and through drywall. Advocating the .223 as a home defense weapon is not only ridiculous, but it completely ignores the historical lessons of self-defense in American homes. As an addendum, when facing a possible gunfight, most Old West lawmen did not grab a Winchester rifle. They grabbed a shotgun. That they wanted the shotgun with its two rounds as opposed to the "tactical" firepower of a Winchester rifle with 10 to 15 rounds of ammo in the magazine speaks volumes about the esteem the shotgun held for stopping bad guys fast. The long gun brought to the famous (and infamous) "Gunfight at the OK Corral" by the forces of Earp was a shotgun. Of the Clanton-McLaury forces, the one shot with the shotgun was the one who immediately fell out of the fight and did not return fire after being hit. These men learned the value of the shotgun early and did not forget or discount it, even when the frepower of the Winchester rifle became available.

In closing, the current laws shaping as they are, an AR-15 could quite possibly become illegal one day. Shotguns are here to stay and even nations that have banned handguns outright still allow shotguns. Shotguns are not going to be banned or licensed anytime soon (or ever.) Shotguns are the best choice for home-defense long arms.
 
Try using slugs for tactical training. I know, I know "OUCH". Several benefits 1) easier on targets. You can blast for some time at a paper/cardboard targets without turning them into snow flakes. 2) you can tell exactly where you were aiming when the gun went off as opposed to guessing based on the pattern. 3) no steel required 4) depends on your facility but usually more "range friendly".

The reduced recoil variety are easier on your shoulder.

Remember to run some of your main duty ammo through as well so you remember the pattern and performance.
 
I can't recall who said it, but I once heard it said that "a shotgun is what one uses to WIN pistol fights". Given the typical manner in which the shotgun is used, most practical pistol scenarios and exercises can be adapted to the shotgun with good results. Buckshot tends to tear up the cardboard targets sooner than pistol fire, so bring some extras and plenty of pasting tape.

It is also good to throw in a distant target every now and then, to force a select-slug response.

Rosco
 
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