T. Burczynski: reliability of JHP's expanding?

A

adad

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Tom, maybe you can help us with an on-going discussion here at TFL. I've heard many times that JHP's aren't any better than FMJ's because they don't expand reliably. How reliable are the modern JHPs such as your HydraShok design or the Gold Dots? Can you put a number on it, like "they expand 10%, 50% or 90% of the time" (in ballistic gelatin, of course).

Any thoughts on how much this expansion contributes to wounding effectiveness would also be much appreciated.

Thanks!

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Wound ballistics is the study of effects on the body produced by penetrating projectiles:
Wound Ballistics

Great daily commentary from a thoughtful Christian perspective:
Daily Commentary
 
Such information from actual cases is all but impossible to find. What I have seen as a investigator etc and talking with some of the best in the business is about a 50% expansion rate.
A number of reasons for this. ONE is the fact only 15% of shootings are frontal. The bullet will hit at angles etc., and may not be in the body long enough to expand.
Expansion almost always takes place near the end of the wound channel where it does the least good.
Few slugs are recovered and are lost. Many will hit a bone, button, belt, etc and damage the slug before it has a chance to expand.
Often a FMJ will deform from such impacts and some even create a mushroom appearance.
The classic expansion most would want is in reality a rare item. We will post on our web page shortly a wide variety of organs hit with hollowpoints including liver, lungs etc. The damage even from expanded slugs isn't as great as one would think. 40% of those shot in the heart will survive which is kind of interesting. I didn't expect the survival rate to be that high.
 
I just spent a 1/2 hour at pluspinc's site. I was amazed at the wealth of knowledge at one place. If you have the stomach for it the pictures are worth a thousand words. The classroom is also worth the time spent checking out the different sections. Thanks for taking the time and funding the site so that all of us can learn. Plenty of real life there, not just opinions and hearsay.

Mark
 
Great site PlusP; looks slick, my compliments to the designer.

I think Wolberg in San Diego did some comparisons of the 147 JHP from shootings and gelatin and they were pretty close when they did expand, but I don't know how consisitent it was. Lots of reasons why you won't get expansion, but that's no reason to go FMJ; any chance is better than no chance? Have seen Gold Dots, Golden Saber, Hydra-Shok that did great through glass into people, and some that did lousy hitting nothing first, and the other way 'round. Life is strange?

Some would dispute that bullets don't expand until the end of the wound channel; many are fully expanded (or as big as they are gonna get)in as little as two inches. If they haven't, might be another reason than not in the body long enough?

Sounds like you attribute stopping soley to the severity of the wound/size of the wound channel? I have stopped plenty of people instantly with my hands, feet, elbows, knees, and head with much less severe wounds than the bullets in your gallery, sometimes with no visible damage at all, certainly less than 12 inches of pen and no blood loss, in fact, no wound channel at all.

If I can do it; why can't bullets? :)

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My wife is my web page designer and has won awards doing it. I urge all of you to sleep with your web page maker. She said the bill for it would run about $40,000+ if she was hired for it and we are expanding it.
We just got a new set of photos of organs that hollowpoints hit. Not very impressive.
I'm in the vast minority that finds the bullet design is not nearly as important as the gun rag bullet salesmen would have us believe. I carry HP's of various types, but in all honesty if I had to carry a FMJ I wouldn't feel under gunned. The gun rags don't like to be reminded that NYPD has carried FMJ in their Glock 17's for almost a decade and with 350+ shootings have not had a failure with them and would not have changed except for ONE TIME a slug hit a steel apartment door and hit a woman inside. They think the HP will stop that and that was the catylist they used to justify a change.
This fact of service with NYPD sure is an eye opener. What it shows is that a bad shot is a bad shot.
Back in the 50's they told us the RNL had to go and kept showing case after case where it failed. Well kids, today look around us and we find such cases still there and easy to find. I had a friend shoot a guy three times in center mass with a 9mm using HP's and the thug never blinked, looked at him and said,
"is that the best you can do?" When someone comes up with the one shot stop thing I about gag because they are selling bullets and have little concern for the reality.
A partner fired 6 .357's into a thugs chest and the guy fired back 5 times and had to be fought into the ambulance. Such cases are there. I shot a robber in both thighs with a .357 and he never broke stride running and ran over a miles before dropping from loss of blood. Handguns are a SECOND choice for self-defense but we have to use them for obvious reasons. An old timer once told me he wasn't happy with a pistol or shotgun. When I asked him what he wanted he smiled and said, "if you can run their asses over with a 5,000 pound car at high speed. Anything less can be dangerous." He'd laugh. Some truth to that I guess.

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Specialists in the use and training of lethal force.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by adad:
Tom, maybe you can help us with an on-going discussion here at TFL. I've heard many times that JHP's aren't any better than FMJ's because they don't expand reliably. How reliable are the modern JHPs such as your HydraShok design or the Gold Dots? Can you put a number on it, like "they expand 10%, 50% or 90% of the time" (in ballistic gelatin, of course).

Any thoughts on how much this expansion contributes to wounding effectiveness would also be much appreciated.

Thanks!

[/quote]

adad:

Under “controlled conditions” (10% gelatin / light clothing / zero degree angle of obliquity), and taken collectively, hollow points like SXT, Gold Dot, Golden Saber, HI-Vel, CorBon, Starfire and Hydra-Shok provide “acceptable” expansion (3/4 of the maximum expanded diameter obtained in bare gel) about 95% of the time. However, when heavy clothing is placed in front of the gel, acceptable expansion is obtained only about 80% of the time. In actual street use (“uncontrolled conditions”), when heavy clothing is involved, it is my understanding that these same bullets provide acceptable expansion less than 60% of the time. Although many variables are responsible for this diminished efficiency (bullet impacting at an angle, deflection from bones, etc.), the primary reason is that the hollow point becomes plugged with fabric. There is also a substantial difference between firing through clothed gel and clothed tissue. Muscle tissue has a greater tendency to impede bullet expansion.

Note: Hollow point Bullets fired at 1300 feet per second and higher have a 50% greater likelihood of expanding acceptably when fired through heavy clothing (and gel) than bullets fired at 1100 fps.

Regarding bullet expansion and wounding effectiveness, you might want to look at the text in the next-to-last(?) post under the EFMJ thread. It talks about diameter vs. square area.

Tom Burczynski
PS
GENTLEMEN:

It’s been fun, but I’ve got to get back to work now. I’ll try to drop in from time to time.



[This message has been edited by Tom Burczynski (edited February 06, 2000).]
 
Thanks Tom! Your input is much appreciated. And I'm looking forward to trying some of your EFMJs. Sounds like a great idea.

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Wound ballistics is the study of effects on the body produced by penetrating projectiles:
Wound Ballistics

Great daily commentary from a thoughtful Christian perspective:
Daily Commentary
 
While we have so many knowledgable folks in one thread, I have a question on expansion. Why do the light/fast bullets tend to expand better (in gelatin anyway) than heavy/slow bullets? It would seem to me (disclaimer: all of my knowledge of physics comes from Star Trek reruns) that mass, not velocity, would cause one object striking another to deform mroe than another. It seems that energy and bullet design being equal, the lighter bullet would penetrate deeper and the heavier bullet would deform (expand) better. It seems to be just the opposite.

Any thoughts?

FWIW, my .02 on bullet capabilities:

Pretty tough to predict bullet performance, just too many variables. If you think that shooting into gelatin will give you some idea of what will happen should you have to shoot a human one day, you may be disappointed. All of the bullet performance tests I've ever seen CONTROL for variables rather than introduce variables. If only the real world was so neat and predictable.

Unless the BG is a cyborg made of ballistic gelatin, the results are probably going to be quite different. If you're worried about "one shot stops" then the answer is simple: shoot 'em twice. That said, I have JHPs in any gun set up for social work. They may work and may not, but why not give yourself the chance?
 
You will be reading several references
to this past weekends LFI-I class in
a number of threads because Mr. Ayoob
presented some very specific opinions
on a variety of subjects.

One was the use of hollowpoints.
He is unwavering in his recommendation
of them. More specifically, he called
the use of fmj "borderline criminally
negligent"..His reasoning was the over-
penetration of such rounds.

Here's my question. If hollowpoints perform
like fmj when plugged by material,wouldn't
they present the same overpenetration
problem?
If so, doesn't the matter really revolve
around shot placement and not bullet
design?
 
More specifically, he called the use of fmj "borderline criminally negligent"..His reasoning was the over-penetration of such rounds.
Here's my question. If hollowpoints perform
like fmj when plugged by material,wouldn't
they present the same over penetration
problem? If so, doesn't the matter really revolve around shot placement and not bullet
design?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
You sure figured it out. You should charge HIM for the knowledge. There is the silly assmption that a HP won't penetrate as much. What do you think a FMJ 9mm 115 grain vs a 115 grain +p+ HP will be for penetration? And since the very vast majority of shots MISS the HP will sure penetrate a lot MORE than a FMJ that hit. Ayoob as others keep ASSUMING perfection in performance and that just isn't possible nor true. Amazing the common sense that is lacking. If placement is pristine then ONE shot will do the job.
Also they fail to note "speed dumping" when a FMJ slug or ANY slug will hit a human. That almost instant decline in velocity is substantial even with a trivial hit. It is often that FMJ slugs and even HP's are found inside the victims clothing. It takes SIX times more energy for a slug to EXIT the skin than enter it.
The FMJ has proven to be very very very lethal and NYPD used it for almomst a decade with NO complaints of performance, which the gun rags fail to recognize. They'd rather make goat claims vs what they KNOW to be true from REAL shootings and try to sell us bullets. Ayoob and other bullet salesmen fail to mention the constant cases showing up where HP's didn't expand, perform, and failed. They aren't hard to find. Shootings seldom involve a frontal shooting to the chest etc. That only happens in gun magazine stories and theories.
There is NO scientific evidence that shows any type of bullet is more lethal or does more to STOP a suspect than any other. If someone has it and it can be verified let me know. Yup, a HP may cause more bleeding but with modern medical advances we are saving people who wouldn't survive a few years ago.
As for stopping, the HP has no warranty of performance that I am aware of.
If it is a bum shot placement, nothing works. A HP won't save your hide. We can't replace individual responsibility for placement with a bullet design.
Sure I carry HP's, but I am not under any false impression they will make much of a difference. At least not to the level the inexperienced types think. Reality of the streets are just not agreeing with the theories. Ayoob should know better. He's the one that shot cows to prove how HP's work.



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Specialists in the use and training of lethal force.
 
Ayoob's recommendation of hollowpoints and profound contempt for FMJ as duty rounds is not contradictory if you think about it. Ayoob is concerned with the entire aspect of the shooting: before, during and after. Restricting the debate to the issue of overpenetration, Ayoob is exactly correct in his analysis of how ammo affects the aftermath (if the HP and FMJ operate identically during the shooting, his advise to shoot till the target stops solves the problem).

If your HP plugs up and overpenetrates, that's not your fault. You chose a round likely (but not guaranteed) to stop in the target or at least have minimal energy on exiting. Legally, you are in a very defensible position if your round exits the target and hits something you don't want. If you use FMJ, then you have knowlingly and intentionally chosen a round which is almost universally regarded as having a reputation for overpenetration. Everyone on TFL and eveyr subscriber to a gun rag knows of this rep and it will be used against you. Firing a FMJ in a public area when you had a choice of using HPs and knew of the danger is, in my book at least, prima facie evidence of reckless disregard for human life. Why risk it?
 
Um, correct me if I'm wrong here, but are we all so arrogant as to think that we're gonna fire 10 bullets and get 10 hits? Isn't a "MISS" the ultimate overpenetration? No matter what bullets you use, you gotta hit the guy. We're jaded by the fact that paper dosen't shoot back and always stays where we put it at the business end of the range.
Although I respect proven bullet designs and follow new things with an obsessive compulsion, I use what works. And what works for me may not work for somebody else. But one fact remains, in the world of combat shooting, everything is maybe and sometimes!
Gotta hit what you're aiming at first before you even worry about (over)penetration or expansion, and expansion is a bonus, don't count on it to save your hide.

Hit him where it hurts!!!!

Tom



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Remember, no matter where you go, there you are!
 
Firing a FMJ in a public area when you had a choice of using HPs and knew of the danger is, in my book at least, prima facie evidence of reckless disregard for human life. Why risk it?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
So NYPD has been clearly neglegent for the past 10 years using FMJ? And can you find ONE case where a FMJ was an issue? Nor can Ayoob. I need a case title to research it.
They just never seem to show up.
When it does surface as an issue any lawyer that goes there will get their lunch handed to them. Your concerns are more with the quality of legal representation than ammunition. Ask the experts who are selling bullets in gun rags if they will appear FREE to speak on your behalf if the ammo is an issue and you used hollow points. I think the answer is obvious.
IF a single legal case is on file where the choice of ammunition was the only or direct cause of monetary damages or jail time I'd love to know about it.
Worry more about realistic legal issues. It is complicated enough that we don't have cloud it with such concerns. Maybe ammo makers should put a warning on the box,
" This is FMJ ammunition and could be hazardous to your legal health." I carry HP's but it is not out of the expectation of saving myself from some legal boogie man. I also don't expect HP's to make much difference. Since most shots MISS by any optimistic guess I'd be MORE concerned with the slugs that wandered into the environment.
Hit my granny with one of your HP's I know what I'll have to say about THAT. Wanna chew on that one? You blew up my granny with your dum-dum bullets that even the military won't use because they are so deadly and are illegal in some areas like New Jersey. Granny never had a chance.
Want the jury to SEE your expanded Starfire slug now? It is an issue NEITHER side would be wise to try and go for and seldom do. THEE issue is neglegent behavior and ammo choice isn't it. Now find me those cases so I can agree with you. I have a bushel of theories.
If you try to protect yourself from EVERY legal issue you will sell your guns and stay home. Ammo won't put you in jail.
 
First off, I do stoke 'em w/HP, just on the assumption there's a chance they MIGHT work. Second, there should be less chance of OP because most of them have SOME kind of a flat meplat, particularly calibers starting w/a four. Common sense dictates that a blunt surface has a harder time penetrating than a "pointy" one. Many HP's I've seen didn't "expand", but they did "deform" to an extent which MAY have helped slow them down a bit sooner.
No one here seems to be concerned w/ricochets? A blunt nosed/sharp edged bullet, that is "designed" to deform, makes a lot more sense if I'm liable to miss. Weren't R's experienced by the Diallo officers, "believing" they were being fired upon? Wouldn't BALL ammo have been worse in that regard?
 
Originally posted by VictorLouis:
First off, I do stoke 'em w/HP, just on the assumption there's a chance they MIGHT work.

If a bullet can be had in adequate weight with a hollowpoint, for self defense use, I don't see a down side to using it.

I know FMJ can deform, but I have shot into dead hardwood with FMJ 9mm. and recovered the bullet. Not much deformation. I'd like all of the help I can get if I have to use my pistol defensively.

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