Symbolic Danger?

W

Wildalaska

Moderator
This thread raises an excellent point

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=282218

Take it further...how many symbols can get you in trouble with your guns and the law, especially in a marginal shoot....or even a good shoot that someone wants to agenda on, or both..

Fire till the threat is down...so 4 shots out of your 45 on a 17 year old black kid with a pocketknife...and your 1911 bears a scrimshawed Confederate flag on the grips.....

How about grips that say "Death before Dishnour" or "Don't Tread on me"...or bear a pic of the Grim Reaper....

Could even your garb be a problem to the armed citizen....?

A T shirt that says "Kill Em All, Let God Sort Them Out" worn during a shoot...LE guys here...would that be of note to you in an investigation? Or the grips noted above? Ball cap the says "The Terminator" or "Armed and dangerous"...

So often we worry about posts on the net coming back to haunt us? Could our very clothes or gun accessories haunt one to?

WildandmoreimportantlywhydoithinkofstufflikethisAlaska TM
 
Excellent point, Wild.

I'm sure it can make a difference when there is something questionable about the shooting. This is precisely why I selected the specific emblem for the grips on my Springfield Champion.

S1911CH_0886.jpg


On the other hand, wearing a t-shirt or having bumper-stickers on your car like the ones in the attachments below would almost certainly provide the prosecutor with leverage to paint you as some kind of unsavory personality.
 

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I will say I have (statute of limitations EXPIRED) run in questionable:o circles...
I have never been a "devout" white supremacy believer but would never carry "tag/thankyou" business cards my buddies offered in my wallet of any of the supremacy groups. I am a southern heritage type guy... I have nothing but the historic beliefs that the war was "The War of Northern Aggression" and the south did it's best to alienate them selves from an oppressive federal gubmint with too much power... Any "carry" gun is left in "as bought" condition and I only buy new utilitarian guns for carry so I would have to say I feel grips and clothing could be used against me but I wore the hell out of several t-shirts that could be used against me one of which read "gun control means hitting the target"
Brent
 
Hey,
Its a "freedom of Speech" thing.
TBS, Anything you say can(and will) be used against you in a court of law.
What more needs to be said?
 
I always had mixed feelings about this stuff. The practical side of me says "A good shoot is a good shoot." but, then there is a part of me that knows perception is reality for many if not most people; I see it on the internet everyday.
In reality I could care less if someone carries a gun that has Death Ray 2000 engraved on the slide and has a set of grips with a rebel flag on one panel and a KKK emblem on the other side. I'm confident that everything I carry will pass scrutiny and I'm the only one I have to worry about.
 
No one wants to be judged unfairly, so don't give them any reason to do so. I think I might need to start wearing sweater vests more often, with argyle socks and a beret instead of a Stetson :rolleyes:

YK

ps, i wouldn't carry reloaded ammo either.
 
Even having a law enforcement badge on a gun grip may lead to cross examination on the basis that you are a 'wanna be' (unless you have this affiliation) and this shaped your judgement.

I would definitely avoid wearing or carrying anything that suggests bias.
 
On the other hand, I wouldn't suggest wearing anything that suggested prejudice.:)

They'd use it as an indicator of character and roast you. They'll slap you up on that TV wearing your Kill em all shirt and messed up hair and the whole country will convict you on sight,
 
and your 1911 bears a scrimshawed Confederate flag on the grips....
Click to expand...

Maybe in the deep South where they seem to not quite of realized that we lost the war you'd get away with it, but here in Houston you wouldn't have a prayer......

Remember DAs are elected officials so they have interest to play to a constituency and if that constituency is ignorant people who don't like guns, what better way of making points than sending some "assault handgun, owning Rambo predator" to "pound me in the ass" prison?
 
I'm sure it can make a difference when there is something questionable about the shooting.
Click to expand...

Someone can always find something questionable about a shooting. Giving the wrong impression can lead to someone trying to do just that.
 
A suggestion: if you're caught in a legal fix where the engravings and stickers on your weapon might be used as legal ammo (pun?) against you, what about having the grips say,

"The leprechauns made me do it!"

Other suggestions...
  • They mostly come out at night.... Mostly.
  • If found, plead "Extreme Emotional Distress."
You can always paint the thing robin's egg blue, or hot pink.
 
Interesting point, but could it work the other way as well?
I'm off to get my carry piece engraved with "give peace a chance" and "I'm really really sorry about this"
 
Perfectly valid concern Wild. It would not be the first time someone was tossed into prison for wearing the wrong T-shirt. I don't know if you have heard of the West Memphis 3, but they are three guys that were convicted of murder and locked up in '93 when they were teens because they read books about Wicca and liked heavy metal music in a time of wide spread "Satanic Panic".

http://www.wm3.org/splash.php
 
I think stuff like that is just a waste of money.

Americans are made up of three groups:

Those that are passionate about gun rights.
Those that are passionate about gun control.
Those that are fence sitters.

We are the "gun rights" crowd. The "gun control" crowd is a lost cause and the two extremes will never change the others' views or beliefs. The most important group of Americans right now it those "fence sitters". They are the ones who will turn the tide in America.

Right now both sides are trying to sway the middle group. The anti's are using emotional scare tactics because they lack logic and reality based reasoning. The rights groups are using logic and fact. Logic beats all, but we have to work at it.
 
So it comes down to whether or not your choioce of art is PC?

Sure, they will take anything they can, and try to use it to "prove" that you were actively seeking a confrontation, had planned to do as you did, and therefore your shoot was NOT a last resort, defense of life and limb, but a premeditated situation you engineered so you could shoot someone, who is no doubt entirely innocent of any threatening behavior, is an altar boy, and donates their entire welfare check to the mission's soup kitchen, because after all, there are people out there more needy than they are. The fact that they have had 17 felony arrests and multiple convictions in the past 6 years is because they are victims of the system!

If they can, they'll use your library record (assuming you had one) to show the books you read, your video rentals record to show the (violent) movies you watch, slogans, bumberstickers, anything at all to demonstrate your sick sense of humor, all of it to prove to the members of the jury that it was NOT self defense, it was a crime, and you need to be convicted.

They would have a field day at my house. You see, I have a Bible. And a Koran. And the Baghivad Gita. And a copy of the US Constitution. And Mao's Little Red Book. And a copy of Mein Kampf. And the Federalist Papers, and the Anti Federalist Papers. and lots and lots of gun books etc. etc. I have Nazi and Japanese war memorabilia. I have US and British and Russian as well, but the news people would ignore that, just as they would focus only on certain of the books I have read. They would do their level best (and cheat if they can) to present to the world all the "evidence" that I fit their stereotypical profile as a fascist, racist, psycopathic killer, just itching for a chance to blow someone away, and I finally got my chance.

Of course all this is over and above the "massive stockpile of arms and ammunition, including assault weapons, high power sniper weapons, cheap disposable Saturday Night Specials (do they still use that term?), explosives (primers and powder)" and anything else they can think of. All they are missing is drugs, counterfit money and child pornography, and I'll bet they'll do their damnedest to get that stuff in there too! After all, I'm clearly guilty of so much already, how could I not have the other stuff, it fits the profile. They'll probably find a set of cheap trick handcuffs and a roll of duct tape as well, damning me for all time as a sexual predator and likely serial killer.

Guess I'm just hosed no matter what the truth is. After all, it is a game of perception, not reality. remember that in court, our regular conversational English takes on a whole new (and often sinister) meaning. Tell a court that "I waited for a minute at the stop sign, looked both ways and then drove on" means you waited a full 60 seconds before going on. Things like that, which everyone undertands in conversation can go a long way to hanging you in a court. Even if they don't actually get you into trouble for "lying", they will appear to destroy your credability, so even the important things that are true will be doubted, if they come from your mouth.

Tell a friend that you'll "kill him if he messes with your stuff" and in court.....well, you get the picture. Lighten up, Francis!
 
After all, it is a game of perception, not reality. remember that in court, our regular conversational English takes on a whole new (and often sinister) meaning. Tell a court that "I waited for a minute at the stop sign, looked both ways and then drove on" means you waited a full 60 seconds before going on. Things like that, which everyone undertands in conversation can go a long way to hanging you in a court. Even if they don't actually get you into trouble for "lying", they will appear to destroy your credability, so even the important things that are true will be doubted, if they come from your mouth.
Click to expand...

And do you have a better solution than our adversarial system of justice which, of course, is problematic as you set forth?

WildgoodpointAlaska ™
 
I'm sure prosocuters will use whatever they can against you. But, if it was a justifiable shoot then it really doesn't matter what symbols or anything else you have.
 
Actually it can matter

Symbols are messages, and have power. That's why we use them. If you carve a swastika or SS runes or a star of David or a Confederate Flag or the Hammer and Sickle, or the Islamic Cresent on your pistol grip, I absolutely guarantee you that some people (probably most) will form an instant opinion of you and it will be very difficult to convince them that reality is any different than their preconcieved opinion.

And do you have a better solution than our adversarial system of justice which, of course, is problematic as you set forth?
Click to expand...

No, unfortunately I don't. Although trial by combat comes to mind as emotionally satisfying, it seldom results in justice. We could throw them in the water, and if they sink, they are innocent....wait, we already tried that one. No, I don't have anything ready that could replace our current system without doing an even worse job in the long run. However, that doesn't mean that we should go into our adversarial system with our eyes closed, trusting with blind faith in the wisdom of our courts and juries to give us justice. As they used to say, forewarned is forearmed (or something like that). Too few people understand that in a court (or speaking to an officer of the court) that words have meanings and those meanings have power, and that power has consequences that they seldom have in ordinary conversation. Other than being banned from a forum, ther is no "Contempt of Internet" charge that can cost your money or put you in jail. Likewise, charges of (verbal) assault seldom result in real world consequences, but say some of the same things in court....well you just might find the results different.

On balance, it is all about rights. You have the right to decorate your property with whatever art, symbols, and slogans you desire. And they have the right to try and make you look like the worst possible human being using the art, symbols, and slogans you choose. Your choice what kind and how much ammo you are going to give them.
 
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