Swat plans for schools

O

oberkommando

New member
Though I might mention this tid-bit of school logic as some of you probably know from previous posts I work Ground maintenance and other jobs for a school district in So Kal. and last June one of the many administrators came to the high I was working at during our break (of course) and wanted the blue prints copied for the local SWAT team files, but interesting part was memo sent to teachers about "Take over proceedures" There will be a certain bell patern and loud speaker anouncement don't remember exact particulars. The main clause that got me was the part about the teachers locking down their classrooms with all the students inside. Doesn't seem very sporting for the BG to have all those fish in barrels. And isn't "sporting" the issue? Was wondering if this was common outside the peoples republic of Kali.

I don't trust too many school policies in southern Kalifornia but maybe I should, at least they didn't build the Bellmont learning centre on top of the La Brea Tar Pits. Only on a dome of methane gas and other contaminates.

If any of you want ot live in a state where no one has any personal responsibility you should move out here to happyland. Just leave your evil weapons at home lest anyone provide for there own well being.

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The beauty of the second Amendment is that it is not needed until they try to take it. T JEFFERSON
 
Suggested reading for them:
"The Diary of Anne Frank"

Book reports due the end of November.
Extra credit will be given for any successful plans to escape a locked room or any hint of common sence.

<sarcasm on>
Great plan! Herd to flock into a confined area.

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CCW for Ohio action site.
http://www.ofcc.net
 
Every school district in the country should have standing operating procedures (not standard!) for the deployment of a sniper unit. If a shooting occurs and children or faculty are down,God forbid, the students are already traumatized. At this point the prudent course is to neautralize the threat or threats with swiftness and extreme predjudice. Had the the young man in Georgia who brandished a weapon earlier this year received a .308 slug through the center of his temple, I will guarantee you other youngsters would think twice before attempting such carnage. I would suggest that starting in high school, all pupils should be marched out onto the football field on opening day. At one goal post a Sherriff's Dept, Swat Team would be in place. On the other goal post, a watermelon, pumpkin or filled milk jug would be readied. The Principal could then relate to the students what could happen if anyone attempts to bring a firearm to school for a shooting spree. After the Swat team demonstrated their pinpoint proficiency, the principal could end by saying "Need I say anymore?". Drastic? Of course, but not as drastic as Kentucky or Colorado.

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"When guns are outlawed;I will be an outlaw."
 
In the event of a school emergency, the SWAT team will go to the school and shoot all the students because some of them may have nail files or other dangerous weapons.

Jim
 
So some little nerd brings a .22 rifle to school and shoots his teacher. The
SWAT team is alerted and the “stand off” phase begins.

Inside the school, the nerd is distracted by a student and one of the
football jocks overpowers the nerd and takes his gun.

Our football hero, rattled but proud, takes the gun outside to give to the
police.

“Man with a gun!” Horiuchi fires - one shot, one kill.

Headlines scream, “High school hero and saviour killed by SWAT team!”
-------

The best laid plans of mice and men can not account for all
contingencies.....
 
I saw something similar in an issue of Newsweek in its "If you own a gun, you might be a mass murderer" issue. Nice pic of a SWAT team in formation practicing maneuvers in a school.

Youch--does this not reek of something vaguely Orwellian?

Only nice thing about the pic were the MP5's Benellis, and USPs that were drawn.

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Exodus 22:2 -- Biblical precedent for home defense.
 
I see nothing wrong with SWAT teams preparing for possible threatening situations. A recent comment I saw was police sargents are now telling the street cops, "when you are driving past a school, if there was a call saying there was a shooting in the cafeteria, would you know where it is?" [Sounds like a pop quiz to me]

Our local SWAT team just had practice in one of our local schools. While I wish they didn't have to prepare for that, it is prudent that they have the special tactics to deal with it.

I've also read recently that they are revising their tactics in mass shooting situations to quickly enter the building and neutralize the situation. I like the idea of a SWAT demonstration, except I would use apples to show some real marksmanship. I also think students need to be prepared, and not in the usual Kiss your ass goodbye train of thought (hearding them into a room and locking them in.)

Kids should know if they hear "POLICE, GET ON THE GROUND" that they should quickly comply. Just like if you were on a plane that got taken over, would you stand up to great the commandos sent to save you. Not unless you want to get shot. Would make an interesting pamphlet to send home with the little kids wouldn't it.

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Peace through superior firepower...
Keith

If the 2nd is antiquated, what will happen to the rest.
"the right to keep and bear arms."
 
There is a simple solution to the school shooting issue. Like all simple solutions, it is also unpleasant. Teachers who are willing to do so should be trained in emergency tactics, and should be encouraged to be discretely armed in school, so as to provide a true immediate reaction capability. If there is insufficient interest in such a program, a full-time security force should be maintained by the school itself. Both of these solutions would seem like a militarization of the school system. That's the down side. The up side is that WHEN (not if)some nutcase goes on a rampage, he will be stopped earlier than otherwise. The faster such an action is stopped, the less dammage there is likely to be. We should ask ourselves, if kids are worth more to us than a building full of gold, why are schools not guarded "like Fort Knox"?
 
T-Rex,

Arming teachers, and removing the unconstitutional laws resticting legitimate people from carrying on schools ground and in schools, would not be a militarization of the school system. It would be a great breath of fresh air to RKBA. This is how it should be.

The security force would be a militarization, and an unacceptable solution if we are to maintain our adherence to the Constitution.

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John/az

"The middle of the road between the extremes of good and evil, is evil. When freedom is at stake, your silence is not golden, it's yellow..." RKBA!
 
Oberkommando, I don't know about the standard, but you've described my school's SOP to a T, except that we're told to line the students up against the inside wall so the killer won't see them. I guess he'll just give up if we hide. FWIW, this would be an acceptable strategy for me if I were allowed to keep a .45 and two mags on me at school--if we're all against the inside wall with the door locked, and I'm covering the door, then:
1. I'm between him and the kids. I can never guarantee this while we're moving in the halls. If you doubt me, take 20 excited dogs into your house, place food at one end and release them at the other end. Now try to keep up with ALL TWENTY.
2. The BG has to break in a locked door--no surprise.
3. If worst comes to worst, I should get off at least 2-3 shots before he does, from what amounts to ambush.

This is only for a scenario where the office finds out about the guy and sounds the warning, of course. If the BG starts in my room, I REALLY want the .45. I'm probably between him and the kids as he enters, but as it stands I'm unarmed. Doom on me.


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Don

"Its not criminals that go into schools and shoot children"
--Ann Pearston, British Gun Control apologist and moron
 
Plans huh?
Need I remind anyone that in Jonesboro the fire drill worked to perfection,,,,,,for the shooters.
Gwinny: Re:If they start inmy room. You and all the others locked in there are screwed with a capitol S. You assume the shooter will come through the door. The shooter could be that pimple faced nerd sitting in row 2. You'll know him for sure when he stays at his seat while the others line up against the wall for him to shoot. Now if they start with your room, that is a different matter.
Locked in a room!?!?!? Yeah right. The little cruds at Littleton planned their carnage for a year. What didn't work for them were the bombs they made. 20 dogs in a feeding frenzy can be distracted by ringing the doorbell. It works on my Great Dane. He hates the doorbell more than he loves his food.
I think I'd encourage the kids to get out of Dodge. Windows are cool. 2nd floors suck though.

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CCW for Ohio action site.
http://www.ofcc.net
 
IMHO, the only valid use for a SWAT Team is in a hostage or barricade situation. SWAT teams, running blind, have a damn near impossible job. That said, school plans should be maintained on a SWAT mobile computer. Were I a parent, I'd prefer to know this was done.
Rich

[This message has been edited by Rich Lucibella (edited October 23, 1999).]
 
Good point, Hal. I have sixth graders in a small town and it's easy to think "my kids would never do that."
Unfortunately, now that you've hit me with that, I can think of at least one that would. But he's in all the special ed classes, and he's getting anger management counseling, and it would be against the rules for anyone to have a weapon in the school, so I feel pretty safe.
:(

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Don

"Its not criminals that go into schools and shoot children"
--Ann Pearston, British Gun Control apologist and moron
 
The purpose of lining the kids against the inside wall is not a nefarious plot. It's common knowledge that entry teams will move along those walls and scan for threats at the interior of the room.

I don't like the idea of "terrorist drills" anymore than I liked doing A-Bomb drills as a child ("File quietly into the hallway; sit; put your head between your legs; kiss your butt goodbye").

But lets look at it:
Your local SWAT team does what Columbine didn't and enters the school....fast. They're trying to move room to room and clear....very fast. Which room is faster and safer for all:

-A) The one with all the students lined against the inside wall, so that any one of them might give up the nutcase to LEO's

-B) The one with all students at their desks, and two at the back of the room, their hands concealed in a jacket or desk?

Terrorism in our classrooms is not a good thing. However, it does seem to exist of late. Unless we're willing to arm our students or teachers, or to start a "Parental Entry Team" program, our kids' best hopes lay with working with our local LEO's. (Note I say "working with" not, necessarily, "submitting to the wishes of". (Remember, they work for *you*....make it so.)
Rich
 
Greetings:

What I don't understand is, even one criminal is on the spot currently committing a crime, a bunch of SWAT team will storm the area.

Would it not be more practical and effective if just few of them on clandestine manner, not much visible uniform of a SWAT or policeman. So that it could get near to the objective.

Almost cases I witnessed, there are too much SWAT team who will go to the area, which has no so much effects. Is it a blitzkrieg tactics of Hitler.

My observation only.
 
Rich,
Ok, I agree, terrorism exists. It should never have come to this, but it has. The problem is how to deal with it. I am by no means even remotly qualified to do so, but common sense seems to be on vacation as of late.
oberkommando says:
<snip>
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I was working at during our break (of course) and wanted the blue prints copied for the local SWAT team files, but interesting part was memo sent to teachers about "Take over proceedures" There will be a certain bell patern and loud speaker anouncement don't remember exact particulars.[/quote]
The most glareing Murphy here is: Why didn't local EMT have blueprints or a floor plan already? Fires, natural disasters etc, have been around for a lot longer than shootings. This small detail points out that the locals are reacting, not acting to prevent. If my kid were burned up, crushed by debris or shot, it wouldn't matter the way but the why of it. It sounds like,maybe, there isn't much cooperation between safety forces here. Secondly, and this isn't to slam oberkommando, but a disaster bell drill should be second nature to all school employees. Again, this isn't a slam against oberkommando, but rather the administration that is just reacting to recent events. It points out that not a lot of thought has gone into this plan of theirs. SWAT, fire, tornado, whatever, all plans should be consistant, yet flexible enough to allow for the possiblity of somebody using the plan for their own end. Herding the kids against the wall just don't cut it. It smacks of the same crap you and I went through during "The Bomb Years"( Like a desk is going to do any good against a Nuke attack). I suggest that the school administration(s) ( not only the one in discussion, but all across the country) look to places such as Israel for plans against terrorist attacks, and act accordingly. This is just so much *feel-good-itis*. Schools have a real problem right now. They should look more for a cure, and less at doing something for show. If you want to trap something, you trap it inside. I don't know of a single fire law that says you lock down a building to protect the people inside. Good thread here. Contrast it with the "My school is a police state" thread. There is just too much of an attitude that: *it can't be prevented, we know it can't, but our main purpose is to do something for show and to cover our butts in court* going on right now.
One last question. Do you really think that the kids would give up the nutcase to the LEO? Think long and hard on this one. Ask 20 kids if they would speak up and say, so and so has a gun in his locker, knowing that so and so had 15 friends that didn't,,,at least not on that particular day.

Gwinny:
We really need more teachers of your quality. I don't say that just because you seemed to see the point I was trying to press, but because I think you are actually trying to teach the kids stuff that can't be found in a book. ie: Common Sence 101 and Basic Responsibility.

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CCW for Ohio action site.
http://www.ofcc.net

[This message has been edited by Hal (edited October 24, 1999).]

[This message has been edited by Hal (edited October 24, 1999).]
 
You can not plan or train for every contingancy. However even a bad plan is a better place to start, than no plan at all. Provided that you can understand, that there is a time to abandon the plan and wing it. The problem is that there aren't many teachers, and even less Administators that would abandon the plan no matter how bad it was going. I would bet (Don't know of course) that most of the teachers shot in these tragities; 1-Placed themselves between the shooter and the Kids. 2- Tryed to stearn teacher the shooter into stopping the violent action. #1 makes them true heros, #2 shows that there was no plan, and under stress you will react as you have practiced.

If teachers are to be armed, they must be trained, well and often. They must be taught not only when to shoot, but more importantly when not to.

Pop Quizz Gwinny,
You hear screaming, and see a crowd of students run past your room. Then you hear gunshots and see a man with a gun run past your room following the students.
You have your 2 extra mags and your .45
What you going to do?



[This message has been edited by Raymond VanDerLinden (edited October 24, 1999).]
 
What about STUDENT resistance?? Is this a NO NO?
Think about it. Without resistance the shooter will kill whomever he wants. With organized resistance probably not as many.

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Better days to be,

Ed
 
Raymond, it'd be easy to knock off some confident response and pretend I came up with it quickly but the truth is I just sat and stared at the monitor when I read your question. It stumped me. I ran through options, of course, but I didn't find a good one.

1. First thought, tell the kids to get against the wall and stay, go to doorway, draw, check direction BG came from for his backup, if clear, try to get him from cover. If he's gone too far down the hall, chase him down.

This is obviously no good. Murphy will laugh at me. I can't leave the kids, because who knows how many BG's there are? If I shoot at the BG after he's run past, even if I brace against the doorway I'm shooting WITH A CROWD OF KIDS as a backstop. Plus, if I don't chase him down (and if it's an adult) it may be a cop or armed parent (that's illegal but they're not BG's) but I won't know because I didn't ID him. So in the end, maybe my kids get killed, maybe I shoot the other kids, maybe if everything else works, I shoot a cop or somebody else on my side. To avoid the ID problem I MUST pursue, which puts me in more danger, leaves my kids all alone in the room and doesn't solve the backstop problem.

2. Immediately order kids to line up against inside wall and stay there. Go to doorway, draw, check to see where BG goes, check to other direction for backup. We're close to the doorway so if the BG keeps going outside I keep the kids in the room and try to apprehend him. If he's going into the building, I lead the class to the doorway, check outside for more BG's, then send them out and across the athletic field. Yes we have ground floor windows but I can't check outside very well that way so I don't trust 'em. Once the class is outside safely I can either stay with them or go back in. IF other teachers are there and in control, and IF the cops have not arrived, I go back in, if possible with armed companions (remember, this is our fantasy world where I'm allowed to carry, others may too.) I get the other teacher to promise to give our descriptions to the cops, then we go back inside and try to "clear" rooms ourselves as much as possible.
Murphy laughs less hard but still has a good time: I let lots of kids get killed while doing all this even though it happens much faster than I can describe it. In essence, I choose my class over the others. Is that right? Damned if I know. If I stop at getting them out, I let even more kids inside die. If I go back inside, I may get in the way of the cops and get popped by them or, again, I might end up killing a cop or another teacher or parent. Besides, how good could I possibly be at clearing rooms? Still, isn't that better than letting kids die?

This is getting awfully long. Suffice it to say that I'm beginning to realize how hard it would be to plan ANY good response to this kind of thing. Thanks Raymond.
BTW, now we all know what really PO'd me about my sig line. . .

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Don

"Its not criminals that go into schools and shoot children"
--Ann Pearston, British Gun Control apologist and moron
 
Don (gwinnydapooh)

I think I got about as good an answer as I could have hoped for! GOOD MAN!!!

1. - Your first and greatest resposability is to the kids already under your direct protection. You got that and you understand that. It's not fun, and it ain't Hollywood, but it showes real world smarts.

2. - In this case, knowing your target,and what lays beyond is of great importance. As you pointed out, You don't know for sure that you have a valid target, and do know that you have inocent kids as the backstop. You have no shot. And you didn't try to force a shot.

3. - You just got a taste of the hardest rule in the world. YOU CAN"T SAVE THEM ALL! No matter how hard you try or how badly you want to. You do what you can as you can.

4. - Great to see that you checked behind the shooter. You can't protect the kids you've got if you get shot.

Fact, Schools are a nightmare from a tactical point of view. Nice long open halls, and a million places to hide and shoot from. Ad panicked children and you've moved on up to ELM Street :( !

All in all I was very impressed with your answer.

I don't know how big your school is or if you have the ability to call the Office from your room. But if you have the ability to notify them do it, before you leave the room with the kids.

The scenario you didn't know. It could have been anything. But here is what I based my quiz on.
A subsitute Teacher has an armed man enter his room. Being armed himself he engages the BG, and though no shots are fired, manages to get the students out of the room. He then retreats to "cover the students escape". In my scenario the door outside is past your room. The shots you heard was when the bad guy went into the next room, and came upon mister NEA and his students.

You did great, you can teach in my son's school any time. BTW bring an extra weapon and he can cover you.

[This message has been edited by Raymond VanDerLinden (edited October 25, 1999).]
 
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