Sustained lead or target focus?
- Thread starter CockNBama
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Shotgun Slim
New member
For me you need to expand on your question a bit so I know which apple you want to compare with which orange.
Dreaming100Straight
New member
Why not both?
I haven't figured it out, but right now I am not able to do both, and swinging thru seems to me to be 'both' because it means seeing the muzzle and the target.
I also wonder if my question arises because I'm concentrating on the wrong end of the process of hitting a target.
I'm pretty sure Hank Aaron didn't look at the fence just before he hammered one...
I also wonder if my question arises because I'm concentrating on the wrong end of the process of hitting a target.
I'm pretty sure Hank Aaron didn't look at the fence just before he hammered one...
NoSecondBest
New member
Hank Aaron looked at the stitches on the ball and the top shooters (in Sporting Clays....your post is very vague) look at the rings on the bird. If you want to be a top sporting clays shooter, concentrate on the rings and forget about where the muzzle or the sights are. It's the same idea as throwing a rock at a running rabbit. You look at the rabbit, not the rock.
The consensus is you focus on the target and your brain learns what peripheral sight picture produces hit. But, make no mistake, your brain does have to have some overall sight picture including the target and the barrel to produce hits. That's how Tom Knapp was able to hit clay pigeons and wild ducks shooting behind his back. He said all you have to do is learn what sight picture works. I asked him how many shots it took to learn THAT, and he grinned and said he wasn't telling.
Shotgun Slim
New member
When you look out over the barrel of your shotgun you will see a lot of things. What you want to be FOCUSED on is the target. I had a fellow shooter who claimed he could see the rotation on the clays when they came out of the house and man that guy was fast and could smoke some stuff hard. I always pretended that there was a tiny number printed on the target and I would try to see that number. Point is you cannot respond properly to something fast moving like that until you are focused on it. You can experiment with sustained lead,swing through or whatever but without proper target focus you will plateau at a score level that you probably won't be satisfied with.
Shooting Sustained Lead...vs Swing Thru ...is the most consistent way to shoot clays or live birds.../ because when you miss you can make an adjustment in what you were feeling for the lead / for the 2nd shell. You have to stay on line with the target ...and match the target speed...shooting sustained lead...and execute a smooth follow thru as part of the shot... / but your focus never leaves the leading edge of the bird .../ you cannot shift your eyes back and forth to the target and the barrel...and measure the lead...you have to "feel" the lead.
Swing thru...means you've let the bird get beyond your barrel...and its a "timed" swing.../ on swing thru you'll hear guys talking about setting the shot up ....and setting a rhythm - like in Butt - Beak - Bang ...as they swing from behind and thru the target.../ and while its a skill that you need - if a target beats you and gets beyond your barrel...its hard to rely on it -- because its so much based on timing and rhythm / and some days you've got good timing - and some days you don't. To execute the shot ....it means you are not matching the target speed....because you have to swing thru and pull away and establish a lead...so you tend to overswing...
Swing thru...means you've let the bird get beyond your barrel...and its a "timed" swing.../ on swing thru you'll hear guys talking about setting the shot up ....and setting a rhythm - like in Butt - Beak - Bang ...as they swing from behind and thru the target.../ and while its a skill that you need - if a target beats you and gets beyond your barrel...its hard to rely on it -- because its so much based on timing and rhythm / and some days you've got good timing - and some days you don't. To execute the shot ....it means you are not matching the target speed....because you have to swing thru and pull away and establish a lead...so you tend to overswing...
Put the rock where the rabbit is going to be. There are various ways to get it done.
For me, it comes down to two different types of leads -- your gun is moving at the same speed as the target (sustained and pull ahead), or your gun is moving faster than the target (swing thru). The different methods, as I understand them...
Swing Thru
This is the basic lead of the new shooter, he chases the target until he gets ahead of it and when the lead is right he fires. The main disadvantage of this method is the gun is moving a faster than the target so there is just one instant when the lead is perfect. If you wait too long, you'll get ahead of the target.
Pull Ahead
With experience, the shooter is able to get his movement better synchronized with the bird. This differs from the Swing Thru in that the shooter matches his gun to the speed of the bird. You swing with the target (instead of thru it) and then take a lead. This method increases you chances of a hit.
Sustained Lead
Your gun is ahead of the target from the get-go. You hold out far enough that you're always moving the gun ahead of the bird. This works best in Skeet and sporting clays because you know where the target is going. This method increases your chances because you have more time to fine-tune your lead.
Obviously, in trap a sustained lead doesn't work because the target can go left or right, so you can't hold ahead of it. In trap, I typically try for a pull ahead with my gun moving at the same speed as the target. Of course, if the target gets ahead of you, sometimes a swing thru is your only option. With trap doubles, it's a different story because the targets are constant and you can ambush the first target (like Skeet's low-7).
Don't over think the standards leads. They assumes the target flies true. Do you instinctively raise your head off the stock when your target takes an unexpected dive? It's learning what to do when the target has a mind of its own that makes all endless hours of practice pay off.
With all the sports the same rules apply: keep your head down, see the lead and follow through.
For me, it comes down to two different types of leads -- your gun is moving at the same speed as the target (sustained and pull ahead), or your gun is moving faster than the target (swing thru). The different methods, as I understand them...
Swing Thru
This is the basic lead of the new shooter, he chases the target until he gets ahead of it and when the lead is right he fires. The main disadvantage of this method is the gun is moving a faster than the target so there is just one instant when the lead is perfect. If you wait too long, you'll get ahead of the target.
Pull Ahead
With experience, the shooter is able to get his movement better synchronized with the bird. This differs from the Swing Thru in that the shooter matches his gun to the speed of the bird. You swing with the target (instead of thru it) and then take a lead. This method increases you chances of a hit.
Sustained Lead
Your gun is ahead of the target from the get-go. You hold out far enough that you're always moving the gun ahead of the bird. This works best in Skeet and sporting clays because you know where the target is going. This method increases your chances because you have more time to fine-tune your lead.
Obviously, in trap a sustained lead doesn't work because the target can go left or right, so you can't hold ahead of it. In trap, I typically try for a pull ahead with my gun moving at the same speed as the target. Of course, if the target gets ahead of you, sometimes a swing thru is your only option. With trap doubles, it's a different story because the targets are constant and you can ambush the first target (like Skeet's low-7).
Don't over think the standards leads. They assumes the target flies true. Do you instinctively raise your head off the stock when your target takes an unexpected dive? It's learning what to do when the target has a mind of its own that makes all endless hours of practice pay off.
With all the sports the same rules apply: keep your head down, see the lead and follow through.
What are you shooting? (target-wise).
Several folks for sporting like MMS, which means Move, Mount, Shoot - your focus is on the target and is it reaches your insertion point, you are moving your body and gun to that point and then firing as soon as your stock gets to your shoulder; others like Sustained Lead, others Pull Away, and others yet Swing Through. The SMART shooter learns them all and learns when to apply each for the best success. For Sporting and FITASC, at least, there is no "one way" as the targets are NEVER the same, unlike Zippy's and Big Jim's skeet.
One thing I will say about rabbits - as it moves along it slows down, come up to it from behind and as your muzzle (and focus) hit the butt, shoot it as you gently follow through. For dropping targets, (especially incoming and dropping), since they are accelerating, follow the target line and "bow to the target" with your muzzle under the bird; for chondelles, those high arcing ones, either follow the line up and get it either just before or after the peak, or if you must shoot when it is going to be dropping, picture a rectangle and as it enters one lower corner, you swing your gun straight across to intercept it at the other lower corner - if you try to follow the entire arcing movement, you will be behind and over it.
Several folks for sporting like MMS, which means Move, Mount, Shoot - your focus is on the target and is it reaches your insertion point, you are moving your body and gun to that point and then firing as soon as your stock gets to your shoulder; others like Sustained Lead, others Pull Away, and others yet Swing Through. The SMART shooter learns them all and learns when to apply each for the best success. For Sporting and FITASC, at least, there is no "one way" as the targets are NEVER the same, unlike Zippy's and Big Jim's skeet.
One thing I will say about rabbits - as it moves along it slows down, come up to it from behind and as your muzzle (and focus) hit the butt, shoot it as you gently follow through. For dropping targets, (especially incoming and dropping), since they are accelerating, follow the target line and "bow to the target" with your muzzle under the bird; for chondelles, those high arcing ones, either follow the line up and get it either just before or after the peak, or if you must shoot when it is going to be dropping, picture a rectangle and as it enters one lower corner, you swing your gun straight across to intercept it at the other lower corner - if you try to follow the entire arcing movement, you will be behind and over it.
In Sporting Clays, 5 Stand and Skeet...I primarily shoot sustained lead...because you always know the path of the target before you call pull - even if you are the first shooter on the station / because first shooter on a squad gets a "show pair". So I know what my setup is going to be...I know which target I will take first...I know my focus point and where I expect to see the target ..and how it sets me up for the 2nd target (if there is one ).../ and I know whether its a true pair, report pair, nested pair, etc...before I shoot / ...and I pre-determine the amount of lead I think I need for each target / and what my shot looks like in terms of where my lead is ...at 6 O'clock / 8 o'clock / 2 O'clock, etc....( so I may talk in terms like - that first target is a shot at 7 O'clock with about 4 Feet at spot X...and then the report bird is at 2 O'clock at about 1 Foot of lead...or whatever the pair presents...).
I also primarily shoot a pre-mounted high gun / its allowed in the rules..and why not take advantage of it. If I have some vision issues...I will still pre-mount the gun to my shoulder to eliminate any fumble there...drop the muzzle a little / so I can see better thru the brush or whatever is causing my vision issues...insert the gun on path / where I want...and execute my shot with sustained lead. ( its a style developed by the pro shooter Bobby Fowler Jr)...
Trap is different like Zippy pointed out ...you can't pre-determine the path of a target...
The low gun mount works for Fitasc -- because he's perfected that move. I will certainly shoot low gun ...in the field when hunting live birds...or I may use Bobby Fowler Jr's technique...if I'm hunting over good pointers on birds that are holding strong...careful not to point the gun anywhere near the dog..but pre-mounted with the muzzle down a little bit...so I'm looking over the barrels....
But one common thread here....is all 3 of us / are saying you always - always look at the leading edge of the bird.
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But all the "cool guys" are shooting Skeet anyway..
I also primarily shoot a pre-mounted high gun / its allowed in the rules..and why not take advantage of it. If I have some vision issues...I will still pre-mount the gun to my shoulder to eliminate any fumble there...drop the muzzle a little / so I can see better thru the brush or whatever is causing my vision issues...insert the gun on path / where I want...and execute my shot with sustained lead. ( its a style developed by the pro shooter Bobby Fowler Jr)...
Trap is different like Zippy pointed out ...you can't pre-determine the path of a target...
The low gun mount works for Fitasc -- because he's perfected that move. I will certainly shoot low gun ...in the field when hunting live birds...or I may use Bobby Fowler Jr's technique...if I'm hunting over good pointers on birds that are holding strong...careful not to point the gun anywhere near the dog..but pre-mounted with the muzzle down a little bit...so I'm looking over the barrels....
But one common thread here....is all 3 of us / are saying you always - always look at the leading edge of the bird.
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But all the "cool guys" are shooting Skeet anyway..
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Jim, I do not ALWAYS shoot low mount for sporting, but I am doing my best to make it my primary method, as it then allows to focus more on the bird and not on the mount, especially shooting FITASC which mandates a low gun.
One club that I shoot at a lot NEVER throws a target on a straight line; the owner verified that when I asked him about his targets - EVERY target will have some form of curl (think like throwing frisbees) so that the "line" can be very technical and hard to determine the best hold/insertion/break points. These targets are deceiving because they make you think the target is going one way when in reality it is not; and since most machines are hidden from view, you need to wait until you see them so you cannot get a "jump" on them like you can in trap or skeet. It's one of the reasons I prefer FITASC to sporting and Helice (aka ZZ birds) above all else.
One club that I shoot at a lot NEVER throws a target on a straight line; the owner verified that when I asked him about his targets - EVERY target will have some form of curl (think like throwing frisbees) so that the "line" can be very technical and hard to determine the best hold/insertion/break points. These targets are deceiving because they make you think the target is going one way when in reality it is not; and since most machines are hidden from view, you need to wait until you see them so you cannot get a "jump" on them like you can in trap or skeet. It's one of the reasons I prefer FITASC to sporting and Helice (aka ZZ birds) above all else.
I hear you Fitasc...../... there are so many games....and so many nuances to setting up a shot.../ and every background and course is very different...and terrain, wind, weather, etc...( and that's why its fun )...
( no disrespect to the OP / but I suspect he's just getting started on his journey in all these games...)...and hopefully he's digesting the input...and figuring out what will work best for him..or her...
( no disrespect to the OP / but I suspect he's just getting started on his journey in all these games...)...and hopefully he's digesting the input...and figuring out what will work best for him..or her...
Absolutely.....I used to shoot with a guy from TX who was a very good skeet shot, and he would start his move just as he was calling pull (and pity the poor new kid if he was .001 second late on the button). His muscle memory was such I would bet he could about run the field with his eyes closed. I now shoot with a NSCA HOF almost 88 years young who shoots everything low gun FITASC style, and if he can see the target (98% of the time) he is going to crush it.
Me?, I'm hoping to live that long, remember my name and not be stuck drooling on myself.
Me?, I'm hoping to live that long, remember my name and not be stuck drooling on myself.
Excellent response Virginian in LA!
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"The consensus is you focus on the target and your brain learns what peripheral sight picture produces hit. But, make no mistake, your brain does have to have some overall sight picture including the target and the barrel to produce hits. That's how Tom Knapp was able to hit clay pigeons and wild ducks shooting behind his back. He said all you have to do is learn what sight picture works. I asked him how many shots it took to learn THAT, and he grinned and said he wasn't telling."
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"The consensus is you focus on the target and your brain learns what peripheral sight picture produces hit. But, make no mistake, your brain does have to have some overall sight picture including the target and the barrel to produce hits. That's how Tom Knapp was able to hit clay pigeons and wild ducks shooting behind his back. He said all you have to do is learn what sight picture works. I asked him how many shots it took to learn THAT, and he grinned and said he wasn't telling."
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Me, I concentrate on the target, with both eyes, in fact, I make sure my eyes are focused out where the target is and not on the bead before I yell pull. Whether or not I do sustained lead or not, I'm not really sure. I think I do but I may be kidding myself. It all happens so fast and instinct just takes over. It's like in playing pool, "if you think long, you think wrong". "Just be the ball Danny, na na na na na......"
Our subconscious is much faster than our conscious though and that's what takes over when we go through the motions of making a shot. There is not enough time for our conscious mind to do it. What our conscious thought does is analyze what was wrong when we miss.
Imagine how hard it would be to walk if we had to consciously think about where to place our feet to keep our balance.
Our subconscious is much faster than our conscious though and that's what takes over when we go through the motions of making a shot. There is not enough time for our conscious mind to do it. What our conscious thought does is analyze what was wrong when we miss.
Imagine how hard it would be to walk if we had to consciously think about where to place our feet to keep our balance.
Creek Henry
New member
Pull away method mostly. It really works well once you dial it in.