Surrender not a good idea according to wacky U.S. Commander

Greg Bell

New member
Guys,

Since we are constantly told by Democrats and others that the Administration doesn't listen to the generals, I wonder why they aren't listening to this guy?

U.S. Commander Warns Against Iraq Cutoff
Nov 15 2:14 PM US/Eastern

By ANNE PLUMMER FLAHERTY
Associated Press Writer
WASHINGTON



The top U.S. commander in the Middle East warned Congress Wednesday against setting a timetable for the withdrawal of U.S. troops from Iraq, putting him at odds with resurgent Democrats pressing President Bush to start pulling out of the violence-torn country.
Gen. John Abizaid spoke as the Senate Armed Services Committee began re-examining U.S. policy in the wake of last week's elections, which gave Democrats control of Congress starting next year and was widely seen as a repudiation of the administration's war policies.



Democrats have been coalescing around a call for beginning a U.S. withdrawal in coming months. In arguing against a timetable for troop withdrawals, Abizaid told the committee that he and other commanders need flexibility in managing U.S. forces and determining how and when to pass on responsibility to Iraqi forces.

"Specific timetables limit that flexibility," Abizaid said.

Asked directly what effect he foresaw on sectarian violence if Congress legislated a phased U.S. withdrawal starting in four to six months, Abizaid replied, "I believe it would increase."

"It seems to me that the prudent course ahead is to keep the troop levels about where they are," Abizaid said, while placing larger teams of U.S. military advisers inside Iraqi army and police units. He said that increased emphasis on advising Iraqi units might be accomplished without significantly increasing the total U.S. force in the country.

With voters expressing overwhelming opposition to the war, Bush the day after the election expressed a willingness to consider fresh approaches to Iraq policy and announced the resignation of Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld, who had become a symbol of the unpopular war.

Even some Republicans on the Senate panel voiced a measure of frustration at the long and costly war in Iraq.

Sen. John Warner, R-Va., the committee chairman, noted that the conflict has lasted as long as World War II, with the Iraqi government still unable to stand on its own and assert authority over security forces.

"How do you explain that in simple terms to the American people?" he asked in his opening statement.

Abizaid said he believes U.S. troop levels, now at about 141,000, should stay steady but may have to rise temporarily to train and advise Iraqi military units. No reductions are advisable until the Iraqi security forces become more capable of dealing with the insurgency, securing Baghdad and dealing with the Shiite militia problem, he said.

"Our troop posture needs to stay where it is," for the time being, he said.

In one of the day's most contentious clashes, Sen. John McCain, R- Ariz., challenged Abizaid on his analysis of the situation and complained that he was advocating no major changes in U.S. policy. McCain, a possible 2008 presidential candidate, has called for adding thousands more U.S. combat troops in Iraq to help fight the insurgency and halt sectarian violence in Baghdad.

"I'm of course disappointed that basically you're advocating the status quo here today, which I think the American people in the last election said that is not an acceptable condition," McCain said.

In response, Abizaid said he was not arguing for the status quo. He said the key change that is needed now is to place more U.S. troops inside the Iraqi army and police units to train and advise these forces in planning and executing missions.

Another possible 2008 presidential candidate, Sen. Hillary Clinton, D- N.Y., said she saw no evidence that conditions inside Iraq were improving.

"Hope is not a strategy," she said.

Citing administration claims of progress, she said, "The brutal fact is, it is not happening."

Clinton asked about the wisdom of partitioning Iraq along sectarian lines, with autonomous regions for the Kurds, Sunnis and Shiites.

"Partition in Iraq could only be achieved at an expense of human suffering and bloodshed and forced dislocation that would be both profound and wholly unacceptable, I believe, to the American people," said David Satterfield, the senior State Department adviser on Iraq. "It is wholly unacceptable to this administration."

Pressed by Sen. Jack Reed, D-R.I., on how much time the U.S. and Iraqi government have to reduce the violence in Baghdad before it spirals beyond control, Abizaid said, "Four to six months."

Developing a "capable, independent" Iraqi government and armed forces "will set the conditions for withdrawal" of U.S. forces, Abizaid said. He offered no timetable for reaching that point. But he said earlier, "I remain optimistic we can stabilize Iraq."

He also acknowledged under questioning that Anbar province, where the Sunni insurgency is strongest, "is not under control." Nonetheless, he said, the main U.S. military effort needs to be in Baghdad rather than Anbar.

Reflecting the division of opinion on how to proceed in Iraq, the next chairman of the committee said the administration must tell Iraq that U.S. troops will begin withdrawing in four to six months in order to force them to take responsibility for their own future.

"We cannot save the Iraqis from themselves. The only way for Iraqi leaders to squarely face that reality is for President Bush to tell them that the United States will begin a phased redeployment of our forces within four to six months," said Sen. Carl Levin, D-Mich.

Asked about his testimony in August that Iraq could fall into civil war and that the sectarian violence was as bad as he had ever seen it, Abizaid said that more recently the situation has improved, while still troubling. He visited Baghdad in recent days.

"It's certainly not as bad as the situation appeared back in August," Abizaid said, adding that he saw growing confidence among Iraqis in their government. "It's still at unacceptably high levels," he said of the sect-on-sect violence "I wouldn't say that we have turned the corner in this regard, but it's not nearly as bad as it was in August."

Asked by Levin whether he was considering increasing the number of U.S. troops in Iraq, Abizaid said he was considering "all the way from increasing U.S. combat forces all the way down to withdrawing" them. He said he would present recommendations to his superiors.

Wednesday's hearing was the first on Iraq policy since the Nov. 7 elections, when voters handed Democrats control of Congress in part because of their frustration over the lack of progress in Iraq. Just over a third of the public approves of Bush's handling of the war, according to AP-Ipsos polling last month. About six in 10 think the U.S. military action in Iraq was a mistake.

Satterfield told the committee that the situation must not reach the point where ordinary Iraqis believe they are better protected by unauthorized militias than by their own government.

"Hope for a united Iraqi will crumble," if that happens, he said. "Such an outcome in Iraq is unacceptable. It would undermine U.S. national interests in Iraq and in the broader region. And it would lead to a humanitarian disaster for the Iraqi people."

Of course, the Democrats continue to propose humiliating defeat as a strategy...

"We cannot save the Iraqis from themselves. The only way for Iraqi leaders to squarely face that reality is for President Bush to tell them that the United States will begin a phased redeployment of our forces within four to six months," said Sen. Carl Levin, D-Mich.
 
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With voters expressing overwhelming opposition to the war

The reporter shouldnt mistake a change in direction and policy with opposition to the war.

The biggest danger we will face is if the Republicans and Democrats do nothing because they are looking forward to the 2008 elections and niether party wants to be blamed for what they did with respect to Iraq. I dont look for anything drastic to happen till they have some time to think on it.
 
Well, it is pretty clear what the Chairman of the Armed Services committee plans to propose. Frankly, the General is right. If we flee now we will pay for it later.
 
When millions of Americans disappear in a mushroom cloud, remember how you didn't want to be inconvenienced

This is fearmongering at its worst.

Millions of Americans cannot disappear in a mushroom cloud. Hiroshima, a densely packed city made of wood, didn't have "millions" disappear in a mushroom cloud. It was more like 100,000.

The terra-ists aren't going to get any hydrogen bombs (the kind that make a million, not "millions" disappear apiece). The best they're going to do is a good fission bomb and the most likely is a crappy fission bomb.

Not that I want to see even 100,000 killed, but let's keep it real, shall we?

Edit:

Think about it. You are a terrorist-sympathizing nation with maybe 10 fission bombs on average. Some older than others, some made earlier in your development cycle than others. IF you are going to give or sell one, which one is it gonna be? Your shiny, new, best one? Or your junk?

You, as a provider nation, have no idea whether the US can identify you as the source of the weapon. You have no idea whether, under pressure, your customer will "out" you.

There are an awful lot of hurdles between here and "millions of Americans disappearing...".

Fear is a fun tool, but don't lets get carried away.
 
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I'm sorry,

When 847,328.4 Americans disappear in a mushroom cloud, remember how you didn't want to be inconvenienced
 
I'll believe this mushroom cloud disappearing act when I see it (or am in it).

I live smack in the middle of a big metropolitan area with a big port nearby. So if they can do it by missile, they can get me. If they can do it by shipping, they can get me. My bet is that I'm safe from that cloud.

There are a lot of factors involved in mounting a nuclear attack, not the least of which is most nuclear material screams out its location in a very hard-to-hide manner.

If you were a terrorist, would you take your rather rare nuclear weapon and try to ship it to a faraway place where you could probably do more damage with a clever jetliner-based plan, or would you truck it to a big oil field?
 
I live smack in the middle of a big metropolitan area with a big port nearby. So if they can do it by missile, they can get me. If they can do it by shipping, they can get me. My bet is that I'm safe from that cloud.

Unless you live in NYC or Rome, you are probably not going to have to worry about it. Just about every Islamic propaganda video has the Statute of Liberty in it, so I presume that is their next target.


There are a lot of factors involved in mounting a nuclear attack, not the least of which is most nuclear material screams out its location in a very hard-to-hide manner.

Every thing I have seen shows that a nuclear device would be easy to smuggle.

If you were a terrorist, would you take your rather rare nuclear weapon and try to ship it to a faraway place where you could probably do more damage with a clever jetliner-based plan, or would you truck it to a big oil field?[

The fact that the destruction of NYC would destroy the US (and western) economy, be of enormous symbolic value, and would do exactly what they say they want to do, points to NYC being the primary target. D.C. is second best, but would have less economic impact (and roughly equal symbolic value).

Unless Americans stop pretending that we are not at war, and that capitulating to these lunatics will actually deter them, we will see millions die.
 
Unless you live in NYC or Rome, you are probably not going to have to worry about it. Just about every Islamic propaganda video has the Statute of Liberty in it, so I presume that is their next target

And any terrorist with a modicum of brains will hit Santa Barbara or Hialeah next. Surprise is part of their game.

Every thing I have seen shows that a nuclear device would be easy to smuggle.

Well, perhaps you haven't seen this. The cleanest and purest uranium and pluonium still spontaneously fission. That means bust in roughly half. A lot of junk is leftover, neutrons, beta particles (fast electrons), and gamma radiation of identifiable energies. And that's extremely pure bomb material, unlikely to be what's in a terra bomb. You can hide most of this radiation, but in heavy lead casks that don't go well with backpacks. It isn't as easy as you think.

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If you were a terrorist, would you take your rather rare nuclear weapon and try to ship it to a faraway place where you could probably do more damage with a clever jetliner-based plan, or would you truck it to a big oil field?[

The fact that the destruction of NYC would destroy the US (and western) economy, be of enormous symbolic value, and would do exactly what they say they want to do, points to NYC being the primary target. D.C. is second best, but would have less economic impact (and roughly equal symbolic value).

So take all troops out of Iraq, all SWAT teams, the DEA, and have them patrol NYC and DC relentlessly, and inspect cargo containers 100%.

Unless Americans stop pretending that we are not at war, and that capitulating to these lunatics will actually deter them, we will see millions die.

I'd say we MIGHT see multi-thousands die. If we continue attempting to stare down a practically invisible enemy rather than enlist the world's help, we risk making enemies out of places that DO MOST DEFINITELY have the power to kill not only "millions" but high tens of millions of Americans in one fell swoop.

Relocate Israel and everyone else who wants to be safe to Oklahoma or Iowa. Pull completely out of those areas (not Oklahome and Iowa). Then let them keep themselves busy slugging it out over the holy land. Any spillover to the civilized world and we make it a holey land.
 
A nuclear device's exploding, of any size, would cause bedlam in the U.S. Does anybody remember the catastrophe of 3000 killed? What if that were 300,000? What do you think would happen to law and order and our economy??

I don't know whether fighting in Iraq has anything at all to do with stopping a terrorist attack on our soil, but I doubt it. Trying to bring Western Civilization to uncivilized tribal savages hasn't exactly worked anywhere in the world, to the best of my knowledge.
 
I don't know whether fighting in Iraq has anything at all to do with stopping a terrorist attack on our soil, but I doubt it. Trying to bring Western Civilization to uncivilized tribal savages hasn't exactly worked anywhere in the world, to the best of my knowledge.

There are a few in the Middle East who are uncivilized tribal savages (i.e. those who employ suicide bombers or treat women as chattel). But Iraq doesn't fall within that classification. They grew up in a society that but for its history of oppresive leadership, had all the makings of a great society. It still does, and that's why, when given the opportunity to vote for their own future, they did so in droves. We can barely get 40% of our population to the polls if the roads are wet; they got a far greater percentage to the polls in the face of death, both threatened and actual.

By the way, I'm glad the Romans didn't feel as you do. If not, much of the Western Civilization you take for granted woudn't exist, as their civilization was adopted and transformed by the "uncivilized tribal savages" of Europe and other conquered areas into what we know today. Unfortunately, we are following the Roman model of destroying ourselves from within, doing what no other force could hope to do.
 
And any terrorist with a modicum of brains will hit Santa Barbara or Hialeah next. Surprise is part of their game.


Whatever. I don't want to see American citizens die.

You can hide most of this radiation, but in heavy lead casks that don't go well with backpacks. It isn't as easy as you think.

Maybe something like a cargo ship? Hmm...

So take all troops out of Iraq, all SWAT teams, the DEA, and have them patrol NYC and DC relentlessly, and inspect cargo containers 100%.

First of all, your proposal is unrealistic. We have 90,000+ miles of coast line to protect. 60,000 ships with hundreds of millions, potentially billions of pieces of cargo. If your proposal was a good idea, it would be better to just hire 200,000 Americans to search the containers rather than surrender and thereby embolden our enemies. Fortress America isn't workable. I wish it was.


I'd say we MIGHT see multi-thousands die.

Again, I don't care to quibble about how many Americans will die in a nuclear attack on our soil. I say millions, you say multi-thousands. Whatever. At any rate, the destruction of NYC will result in worldwide economic carnage, and probably millions of additional deaths from the complications of radiation poisoning.


If we continue attempting to stare down a practically invisible enemy rather than enlist the world's help, we risk making enemies out of places that DO MOST DEFINITELY have the power to kill not only "millions" but high tens of millions of Americans in one fell swoop.

Again, easier said than done.


Relocate Israel and everyone else who wants to be safe to Oklahoma or Iowa. Pull completely out of those areas (not Oklahoma and Iowa). Then let them keep themselves busy slugging it out over the holy land. Any spillover to the civilized world and we make it a holey land.

I say we build a golden candy elevator to Heaven. That is my suggestion. And make the minimum wage a trillion dollars a minute. What the heck?

The problem with this discussion is that you are talking about things that simply aren't going to happen. You can't wish away the Arab-Israeli problem with pie-in-the-sky proposals like "move them to Iowa."
 
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