Super SUPER DUPER High Velocity Loads

F

Ford

New member
Jim Cirillo has designed some lightwieght high velocity ammo that I think I may be a little leary of.
Here are some of his examples:
9mm 50 grain totally fragmenting expanding point doing 2,160 fps,
9mm 60 grain doing 2,010 fps,
.40 S&W 77 grain at 2,000 fps,
10mm 77 grain at 2,450 fps,
.45 ACP 115 grain out of the Glock 30 at 1,650 fps,
.357 SIG 27 grain at 2,840 fps.
Those of you that are more knowledgable about ammo please inform me on how this is good or bad. Cirillo says that these bullets are not prone to ricochet and will not over penetrate. Seems to me that they would wear out a barrel pretty quick.And man that is just a light bullet.
 
Barrel wear? In a handgun? Any of these loads will go way over 5000+ rounds in a handgun. Handguns just don't have the pressure to ruin throats like rifle rounds do, not near enough powder. That's the least of the problems, I'd second the idea of non-expanding bullets, something like a light copper driving band swaged onto a carbide or marraging steel penetrator. Illegal as hell, of course. Silly ass laws. Semper Fi.....
 
I'm unaware of any reputable researcher who's tested this ammo. We contacted the company (RBCD Performance Plus) and they declined to provide us with any test samples. I suspect they feared that we'd editorialize against their ammo instead of objectively performing and reporting our test results. They offered a some lame excuses, listed a few gun writers who're currently testing (or have already tested) their ammo and are publishing articles about it in the print media, and asked us why we feel our readers would be willing to believe our test results if they provided us with "free ammo for testing". (I suppose all those other gunwriters they listed paid for the ammo they've tested too?)

At $32.50/box of ammo, it must really be something.

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/s/ Shawn Dodson
Firearms Tactical Institute
http://www.firearmstactical.com
 
How soon we forget. From Nov 7, 1999 (4.5 months ago): http://www.thefiringline.com:8080/forums/showthread.php?threadid=33010

The man who developed the ammo is Roscoe Stoker, yes his real name, and I am unaware of any relationship with Jim Cirillo other than possibly for name recognition. The development and manufacture is in San Antonio, Tx and Jim Cirillo is retired living in Florida. Someone on the east coast is a major distributor and invested heavily in inventory around Nov or Dec last year, to the tune of tens of thousands of dollars.

Shawn - Cirillo, Sanow, Marshall, and Ayoob articles sell ammunition, if yours don't then it is not cost effective to give the ammo away. All those give aways are pure advertising expense to get a good write up. Frank James, Gary Paul Johnson, Chuck Taylor, and Walt Rausch are right at the top of those accepting freebies and I do too when given the opportunity, but I did pay for my ammunition.
 
The big questions are:

1) Reliability out of pistol "X". Slide velocities resulting could exceed the mag spring tension and not allow all rounds to be striped and chambered in every gun. Therefore much need for testing for reliability. Some say at least 200 rounds. Sounds reasonable. So does putting a mag worth of it through every other week.

2) Cost: Is $32.50/box of 50 or 20? Either way is expensive. Maybe insurance cost too much to make the high velocity ammo afordable to the middle class. I truely wish that someone would come out with high vel that would not cost over $100 just to see if it works or not. Just throwing away money for knowthing if it doesn't work in your favorite pistol.

BTW, How does one go about getting these nice jobs where I can get paid for doing what I just did and receive free ammo perks as icing on the cake? Lets see.......Cirillo, Sanow, Marshall, Ayoob, EQUALIZER...........delusions of grandure. :rolleyes:

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"But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip; and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." -Jesus Christ (Luke 22:36, see John 3:15-18)



[This message has been edited by EQUALIZER (edited March 14, 2000).]
 
Jeff OTMG:

Thanks for the link as well as your insights.

I'll probably go ahead and purchase a box or two for testing just to see for myself how this stuff performs.

It appears I foolishly assumed that $32.50 would buy me a 50 round box, and I considered that price to be expensive. Imagine my shock when I read in your earlier post that this money buys a whopping 20 bullets! Wow! This stuff ain't cheap!

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/s/ Shawn Dodson
Firearms Tactical Institute
http://www.firearmstactical.com
 
If you try any of this ammo would you please post your results?

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For 1911 fans and all firearms enthusiasts
www.1911forum.com
 
Where is it even possible to get any of this ammo?

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For 1911 fans and all firearms enthusiasts
http://www.1911forum.com
 
Shawn, the stuff is pricey!!! It is cheaper than MagSafe or Glaser with the same performance, but WAY more than conventional ammo. I bought a 20 round box of 9mm, but I am waiting to shoot it at an outdoor range so I can shoot it into something besides a paper target. If you get some, try that screaming .357 SIG load and let us know how it is. Tell you what, I will donate my box of 9mm to your testing cause if you use calibrated gelatin and report the results. I am particularly interested in penetration after passing through a sheet of glass, a known defeater of Glaser and MagSafe slugs. What do you think? Also if you want me to talk to Roscoe for you I will. I may hot be able to get freebies, but I could try for a discount.

Ford - Go to the web site and call them. They can tell you who the distributors are.
 
Jeff OTMG:

Thanks for offering to donate your ammo, but I'm gonna pass on your offer. I intend to just go ahead and purchase some for testing.

I'll try to get around to testing it through windshield glass and into gelatin to see how it does. In the meantime, you might consider rummaging through the dumpster over at your local Novus windshield repair shop and scrounging up a broken windshield to use for penetration testing. Go buy a large beef roast, place it about 12-18 inches behind the windshield and shoot through the windshield into the roast. That should give you a general idea of what kind of performance to expect. You could also try water-soaked newspaper or water-filled cardboard milk cartons.

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/s/ Shawn Dodson
Firearms Tactical Institute
http://www.firearmstactical.com
 
Seems to me that the major producers of ammo have pretty good labs, engineers, and testing resources. They pride themselves on providing a product that works to pretty much the same standard as everything else. If anyone could corner the market on THE LAST WORD IN DEFENSE LOADS, seems like it would've been done long ago by one of the big boys. There's not much profit for them to produce something gimmicky, or that has seriously questionable merrit when compared to conventional loadings.
Even if their motivation was to market a product just to fill shelf space to take it away from their competition (as breakfast cereal makers do), this would've been done.
Read the article, saw the pictures, would LOVE to see how they compare to standard loads in IWBA and FBI standard tests (if they can, but I seriously doubt it)!!
Too rich for my blood, I'll stick to tried, true, and PROVEN HydraShoks and GoldenSabers.

Tom

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A "Miss" is the ultimate overpenetration!
You can never be too rich, too skinny, or too well armed!
 
And I thought I was pricey!

Can you say "sectional density"?.........

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"All my ammo is factory ammo"
 
A couple of things: it's actually a balancing act.

1. I doubt that there is any more pressure in these high velocity rounds. A lighter bullet with the pressure of a STANDARD round will push the lightweight bullet to extremely high velocities... That's common sense though.

2. A barrel's twist rate is calculated using Standard velocity (+p included) & standard weight rounds... not super high-velocity lightweight rounds. A slower twist rate is needed to stabilize the faster rounds.

3. Short bullets have less contact with the rifling. The only way to make bullets faster is to make them shorter OR make them of some other lighter substance. Since the bullet is likely to be shorter, it is LESS LIKELY to be accurate. BUT, the speed of a lightweight bullet will aid in expansion. Also, you need SOME weight so that it can maintain the momentum to reasonably penetrate. There's that balancing act.

4. All because a bullet is fast doesn't mean it will cycle a pistol reliably. A light bullet may have already exited the barrel BEFORE the cycling has finished. In THAT case, the pressure may NOT be sufficient because there nothing for the gases to expand against like there would have been had you used a slower +p round.

5. They cost too much money to check for reliability the huindreds of rounds I like to use.

not bad for a kid eh? :)
Ben

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Almost Online IM: BenK911
ICQ # 53788523
"Gun Control Is Being Able To Hit Your Target"
 
Not bad Ben. Not bad at all.
Just don't let it go to yur head "kid". ;)

I don't know about the light weight bullet reasoning that you mentioned, but in my limited experiences the lighter rounds didn't group as titely at 25yds. I sure have no basis to argue.
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"But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip; and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." -Jesus Christ (Luke 22:36, see John 3:15-18)



[This message has been edited by EQUALIZER (edited March 20, 2000).]
 
Equilizer,
I'll try to not let it go to my head. It's best to take ANYTHING I say with a grain-of-salt... tongue in cheek. But I DID come up with some pretty logical "sounding" Bull Spit didn't I? LOL "It's all in the PRESENTATION!!!"
;)
take care bud,
Ben

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Almost Online IM: BenK911
ICQ # 53788523
"Gun Control Is Being Able To Hit Your Target"
Bumpe R. Sticker

[This message has been edited by Ben (edited March 27, 2000).]
 
Ben,

"...Not bad for a kid eh? :)" I took it tongue in cheek. That's why I replied in wise. ;) BTW, I don't think that all that much salt was needed. It seemed to make sense to me. But then again, I'll believe about ANY line of bravo siera if the presentation is convincing. I remember once searching a cow field, with a bag in one hand, for......snipe! The only one I met was Patty........Cow Patty. :)

I just discovered an answer to (#4) hyper vel. rounds and reliability, PLUS accuracy just recently. Have you ever heard of "Gas Guns"? If the barrel really does the job, it will be a true EQUALIZER indeed.

robert

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"But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip; and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." -Jesus Christ (Luke 22:36, see John 3:15-18)
 
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