Suggestions for Modification/Tuning on an SA 1911 in 9mm?

U

UglyJim

Inactive
Okay, I’ve just bought my first .45 cal 1911…a Kimber Compact CDP. So far, I’m pretty impressed with it…it definitely shoots a lot better than I do :rolleyes:. I haven’t shot regularly for a number of years, so I’m sure that it’s going to take a while for me to become even marginally proficient with it. Hopefully by that time I’ll become knowledgeable enough to have an idea as to what modifications (if any) I want to have made to it.

Since I expect to be preoccupied with my new toy for the foreseeable future, I thought this might be a good time to look into having some work done on my old gun. I’m just not sure if it’s even worth having any work done on this pistol. It’s a Springfield Armory 1911A1 in 9mm that I purchased used about 15 years ago…it’s basically a MILSPEC version (except for the oddball caliber); the only non-standard parts that I’m aware of on it are Pachmayr wraparound grips that were installed by the previous owner. I bought this pistol on the recommendation of a friend back when I had absolutely no knowledge of handguns (I still don’t know much)…at the time I just wanted something for inexpensive recreational shooting (this was long before concealed carry was an issue for me). Since this is such a bare-bones gun, I was wondering if it might a fun exercise for me to contact a pistolsmith to see if this gun could be significantly improved. My problem is that I don’t really know enough about 1911s to know what changes/modifications I should request. I know that many smiths offer general “reliability” packages that address a number of the stock deficiencies in 1911s…I guess I’m contemplating a package of this nature plus the installation of an extended thumb safety and some slimmer grips (I have fairly small hands). I might also consider getting the gun refinished…the Parkerized finish (yech!) has gotten pretty scratched up over the years. I also need to do something about the magazines; the three that I have are absolutely wretched (I probably ought to just replace them with some McCormick mags…I guess they’d be compatible). I should note that I don’t anticipate using this gun as a carry piece…it’ll be more of a range/practice piece.

So I guess my question is as follows…do you think that it’s worth putting any additional money into such a relatively low-end gun, or would I be better served by spending my money on ammo for the Kimber (or on another gun entirely)? Even though I realize that 9mm is a sub-optimal caliber for this design, I still enjoy shooting the gun…I guess I’ve become sentimentally attached to it (besides, it’s cheap ;)). It’s definitely more than a little “clunky”, but I’d hate to permanently relegate it to non-active status. Besides, I think that working with a knowledgeable smith might be an educational opportunity for me…it might give me little insight into the type of work that I’ll want to have done when I make the seemingly inevitable transition to higher-end guns :). Also, does anyone have any recommendations for the type of modifications I should look into? I haven’t noticed any pattern of recurring failure (other than the occasional stovepipe, which is probably caused by my poor technique), but the Springfield feels distinctly sloppy and gritty in comparison to my Kimber. It also seems inordinately difficult for me to shoot accurately with this gun (at least compared to other 1911s that I’ve fired recently)…of course this could also be attributable to poor shooting skills. Like I said, I’m not even sure if this gun would be a good candidate for any work…I just thought it might be worthwhile to get the opinions of some more experienced folks.

One other thing (and I may be totally off-base in even asking about this)…I was visiting Dane Burns’ website and saw some information about 1911 conversions for the 9x23 cartridge…does anyone think this option might merit some exploration? I only own a couple of other handguns (the aforementioned Kimber and a Glock 26 for CCW) and I was curious as to whether a 1911 chambered for 9x23 Win might be an interesting addition to the collection. I don’t know, though…that’s probably too ambitious a project for someone like me.

Thanks for your input…
 
UglyJim, I have a similar post above because I was interested in high cap 9 X 23. No point in letting it become a dust collector.....do whatever you want to it I think. A 9 X 23 is definitely a possibility.
 
Most custom guns are built on basic pistols, because there is no point in paying for extra features if you are going to replace them later. Any basic model SA, Kimber or Colt is a good starting point for a customized pistol, and the best modifications aren't necessarily expensive. Your gun is actually a perfectly fine starting point for a customized 1911 if that's what you want.

The frame can be modified at modest expense to be more like a Kimber or Colt. If the gun is reliable a trigger job is the most important thing to improve the gun's shootability. Better accuracy is often a barel re-crown and mabye a better-fitted barrel bushing away, assuming the gun needs it at all. And so on.

The 9x23 cartridge is a bit esoteric, but you can get Winchester factory ammo for fairly reasonable prices. Your feed issues might just be a matter of better magazines or some minor fiddling by a pistolsmith. A 9x19mm 1911 is pretty easily converted, the main difference is a new barrel and some minor fiddling. Heck, a good pistolsmith could probalby just ream the 9x19mm chamber to 9x23 (I'm not positive about that, though).

I've had work done on my Delta Elite by Dane Burns and it came out GREAT. I highly recommend him. He's not particularly cheap, but he is very good. As an aside, don't be put off by the package prices on his web page too much... he will also gladly do less involved (and less expensive) work to make your gun run like a champ.

I'd say go for (1) complete reliability, (2) trigger job, (3) re-cut frontstrap for better grip. Then test it for accuracy and shootability. The other thing I'd seriously consider is better sights, since most milspec sights stink. That is by far the most important stuff. A 1911 that runs well and has a good trigger will shoot rings around almost anything going.

Beware, customizing 1911 pistols is addictive and can quickly go from reasonable to very very expensive. :D

http://www.geocities.com/mr_motorhead/deltabcp.html
 
Thanks, guys…that’s exactly the kind of info I was hoping to get. I just wanted to run a sanity check on the idea of working on this gun before I embarrassed myself by wasting a smith’s time with a bunch of really stupid questions ;). Even though I don’t shoot the gun in question very often anymore, I was hoping that it might still be a reasonable platform for a customization project. The more I learn about 1911s, the more I find myself intrigued be the pistolsmith’s art. I’ll definitely have to start doing some research…this may develop into an interesting (if expensive) project. It sounds like it may actually be feasible to have the ol’ drawer queen transformed into a fun & elegant piece.
 
The most important first steps, IMO, are a good trigger job, and installing better sights.

Just stoning the sear/hammer engagement surfaces is an easy job. Building up the back side of the trigger to reduce "foreplay" is a lot more work, and you might not think it necessary.

I happen to like the MMC fixed, "combat" sights. There are many other good after-market sights available.

Polishing the feed ramp and the lower portion of the throat of the barrel assist in reliable feeding. I also polish the top of the chamber. However, feeding reliability is 90% the lips of the magazine...

It's a cut-and-try process to find just the right amount of length longer than stock in the barrel link; this makes lockup just a wee tad tighter and more positive if the proper selection is made. Only important for target accuracy, really--but cheap.

A fitted barrel bushing aids accuracy. It fits tighter around the barrel and within the slide. It should not be so tight it binds, however.

I've never put a finger in front of the trigger guard when I shoot, so I never bother with that.

I prefer the Colt-style beavertail grip-safety to the up-curl type, but that's a function of the shape of my hand. Anyhow, the beavertail prevents the hammer's biting the web of your hand.

I often--but not always--pin the grip safety so that it's inoperable. I've never had any safety-problem as a result; no accidental "Bang!"

FWIW,

Art
 
OH heck yeah... Pimp that thing out! Do anything you want to do with it... Seriously - If it is a gun you like - Go ahead. Nothing wrong with a 9MM 1911. Can't say that I would go out and buy one myself - but if you like it, then great. That is all that matters.
As to what mods to do to it?
Action and Trigger jobs are a good place to start - Make it run smoother and cleaner... can't go wrong with that.
After that?
Well, then it gets personal.
Do you want more accuracy or do you want more handling... Speed, smoothness... its all a matter of choice.
You don't need a "Brand Name" part for it to be good. For many many years people didn't bother "Upgrading" the 1911 because it was JUST FINE. Any changes you make should only be because it makes the gun a better fit for you personally.
 
Pretty good responses so far

9mm is a great caliber and can be incredibly accurate with the right load. Your gun is from an era in SA history where they turned out some marginal product. Don't take that as a slam on your piece! It can be improved.

First thing you should have done is a good trigger job. Pull weight is a very personal thing, but I prefer around 3 to 3.5 pounds.

Better sights are almost tied with the first issue regarding importance. Since this is a range gun I would definitely install BoMar adjustables in a melted configuration. This means they are lower to the slide and make for faster target acquisition.

The esteemed gun guru Kuhnhausen's take on the 1911 is that 80% of the accuracy is barrel to bushing fit. From my experiences with the SA gun from hell I would most definitely agree! A ramped barrel is simply unnecessary. A standard barrel will save you from modifying the frame and they can be just as reliable when done by a competent smith. I would definitely recommend a BarSto barrel as first choice - well, ok, a Kart barrel will be as accurate...flip a coin. I have installed both brands and they are equally accurate - equally accurate meaning essentially one hole groups from the Ransom Rest at 25 yards.

As for crowning the barrel? I can assure you with a stock SA barrel you will see zero difference in accuracy versus the stock configuration - as long as your crown is NOT damaged. How do I know this? I had it done and with my Ransom Rest testing found no difference before and after the crown job. Don't waste your money on that.

Finally, your mags are probably getting tired springs. I would highly recommend that you visit http://www.gunsprings.com and order some new magazine springs for those you have. While you are there, order a recoil spring "variety pack" which has different weight springs. This will likely improve your reliability.

PS,
Don't get an abortion job on the gun and convert it to 9x23!!
 
Also,

I would suggest you pick up one of Kuhnhausen's books on the 1911 to familiarize yourself with more details regarding your preferred projectile platform. They are available from www.midwayusa.com and other outfits as well.
 
You can probably get a pretty good idea from your CDP if the features that it has seem desirable to you. A good trigger and decent sights are what really counts. I personally much prefer a beavertail grip safety to the standard one. I also prefer a thumb safety that is a little bigger than the GI style. Beyond that the sky is the limit. I would enjoy a 9mm 1911 if I had one, but I just can't bring myself to buy them in anything but 45.
Best. Watch-Six
 
Yep. every REAL 1911 afficianado knows forwards slide serrations are where its at. Real thick ones. It's the essential tactical modification to make 1911 eligible to compete with modern handguns. Oh, that and it needs to be duotoned. Drilled out triggers help also.
 
Thanks for all the good info, gents…I'm definitely learning a lot, and I'm beginning to get some ideas about the direction that this project might take. I'm beginning to feel a little better about the feasibility of having some work done on this pistol. Knowing what I do now, I probably wouldn't buy another 1911 in 9x19, but since I already own this gun I'd like to make the most of it ;).

slickpuppy: I appreciate all of your comments and I'm certainly not offended by your reference to SA's potentially problematic quality record for the period when my gun was manufactured. In fact, it was my own concern about the quality of the gun that led me to start this thread…I wasn't sure if it was of sufficient quality to be a suitable candidate for modification/upgrade :). However, I have to admit that I'm a little bit curious about your recommendation to avoid the 9x23 conversion. During my (admittedly cursory) research into this cartridge, I hadn't heard anything but positive comments about it. Could you please elaborate on your reservations about the 9x23 conversion? Is the problem the conversion process or the cartridge itself? I'm genuinely curious and would welcome any pro/con information about this option…

I'll definitely look into the Kuhnhausen books…

ATeaM: Ah, I think I'm finally beginning to pick up on the sarcasm! Remember, it's not always nice to mess with the newbies…sometimes we're too dumb to know when someone's jerking our chain :). FWIW, I'm generally not a fan of forward slide serrations or duo-tone guns (the fact that I just bought a CDP notwithstanding :D)
 
UJ,
On the 9x23 conversion - it is just my preference to retain the stock 9x19 caliber. One factor is that you are using this for a range toy/plinker. With that in mind, the longer barrel life of the 9x19 vs. a 9x23 keeps your toy in your hands and out of a smith's shop to replace the barrel. The second issue is ammo and I am assuming you do not reload. 9x23 isn't exactly found at your local WalMart. 9x19 is. Of course, if you reload this is a moot point.

http://www.burnscustom.com/9x23.html will get you Dane's take on the round. He is a big fan of it. If I was going to convert one, he would do it. You will also see that it is not acceptable for competition in the eyes of some of the organizations and he mentions the shortened barrel life. He highly recommends the round for self defense.

Personally, I have an assortment of handguns in 9x19 and 0 in 9x23. I like the 9x19 caliber as it is. It is for range use only. For up close and personal I prefer one of my 10mm toys;)
 
Just keep the 9 barrel and do whatever else you want...Be wary of doing too much too fast...If you're gonna' have it all done, then get it done by the same guy at the same time...Otherwise...do what YOU LIKE...No one else has to depend on the damn thing but YOU!
Esthetics are definitely way DOWN the list at this point. Make the time to get acquainted with the pistol all over again...This time through, think about what you like and what you don't on other peoples' pistols...Then make up your mind...There's no rush and the damn thing's paid for...

Just a good trigger job and sights will get you a lot closer. If the springs haven't been changed...Change ALL OF THEM AT THE SAME TIME...Keep a log and track what works, what doesn't and what you think MIGHT be better...As long as you keep the book up to date...you can return the pistol to any point in time to troubleshoot or just compare the stuff as before and after...Once you start changing things like the frame shape and diddlin' with serrations and stuff...it's done...Can't be undone with any reasonable ease...Think before you chop...and think again...I see that some are advising cosmetic changes already...
They are expensive...If that's your main concern, more power to you...There are more ways to customize a 1911 than Carter has little liver pills...Just make sure they are the changes YOU WANT...
Good luck and if you need some links to get some different ideas...drop me a note in the mail and I'll send you my favorites...

Good Luck...
double0smile.gif
 
Thanks for more good input, guys…

slickpuppy: Thanks for the clarification…I see your point, and I tend to agree with it. I think you're absolutely right about the inappropriateness of the 9x23 conversion for a plinker, and that was certainly my stated intended use for this gun. It's just that once I started doing a little research on the options available from custom pistolsmiths I began to get a little excited, with wild visions of a fully tricked-out high-power custom carry gun ;). That's probably a little bit too ambitious a project for someone with my limited experience and resources…I probably wouldn't even be able to take advantage of the capability/firepower of a custom 9x23 conversion :rolleyes:. The issue of the cost/availability of 9x23 ammunition is also quite valid; the low cost of the 9x19 ammo would probably enable me to get more use and pleasure out of the gun in its current configuration. Still, after shooting my old 9mm 1911 along with my new Kimber CDP at the range this weekend, I've just about decided that there definitely are a few enhancements that probably would make the 9mm a lot more fun to shoot…I think I'm going to look into reliability/action work, a trigger job, new sights and an extended thumb safety.

gyp_c2: Very good suggestions…I agree that it probably makes a lot of sense to limit this project to the basic functionality of the gun. Even though I do have to admit to certain fondness for "pretty" guns (my tastes tend to run to traditional blued finishes and nicely figured wood grips), I agree that aesthetics should not be my first priority. I can always look into cosmetic enhancements after I get the gun running in a way that I like. I like your suggestion to keep a log of any changes and their consequences; it sounds like that might be a good step towards becoming a better-informed shooter.

Lots of stuff to ponder…now I just need to find a good smith :)…
 
UJ,
A smith fit bushing, a Videcki trigger, and a set of BoMar sights would be the ticket. Personally, I would have Dane Burns do it. I will be sending him a couple to work over first part of next year.
 
MY TURN

For custom work check here for list: www.americanpistol.com.

For barrel send WHOLE GUN to BarSto; have them hard-fit.

For finish (and also superb 'smithing) send to Bob Cogan at Accurate Plating & Weaponry (www.apwcogan.com).
Bob can do your entire gun.

Some things you can do yourself (but remember, you can always take more off, but it's REAL hard to put it back): 'dehorn', fit grip panels, magazine release, Nowlin trigger group including hammer and sear (requires bigger balls), Wolff springs, firing pin and stop, guide rod, and of course, anything you feel like tackling -- it's your gun!
 
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