Suggestion for a new training course - I am not kidding.

Battler

New member
Have to ignore the "cold dead fingers" crowd here.

I'm serious. Advanced triple-tap convenience liquor store hold-up-cum-IPSC training just aren't modern or up to date.

What I suggest "Surviving unexpected dynamic entry by guys in ski-masks". It's specifically tailored to gunowners.

Many gunowners may respond incorrectly to having their doors kicked in. Let's face it, you looked around before you picked your house/neighborhood - probably a nice neighborhood with next to no chance of intruders. However, since you have guns in the house, we can safely assume you have a VERY GOOD chance of experiencing a dynamic entry at least once in your life.

The correct response, I would imagine, is to not look like you have a gun, stay still, and beg for mercy. Yet the "defense"-based trained response (grabbing your gun due to an intruder) - well, will leave you a 200 lb bleeding 9mm submachinegun bullet repository.

Defense/combat training is something we learn through repetitition, we plan in our minds over and over again, so that in dire stress we can remember what to do. Well, you need to train over and over again how to appear submissive and non-threatening, so in dire stress during a dynamic entry you don't spook any of the LEOs.

I mean, maybe you've prerehearsed/pre-though out how they'd unload their 5 ready-to-go magazines on the gang of heavily armed 300 pound crack-high bikers.

But who's planned and prerehearsed putting up their hands, lying face down on the floor, moving slowly and unthreatening during high stress, and having a loaded MP5 shoved in your face without relieving your bladder?


The first scenario is unlikely enough to be ludicrous. The second is far more likely, and far more dangerous. We train already to be prepared - is it not prudent to be prepared for this?

The closest thing we have to this is reports of how to be least intimidating to a police officer during a traffic stop (dome light on, hands on wheel, no sudden movements). This is really no different.


We could call it:
"Rapid Tactical Submissiveness" or something.


opinions?
Battler.




[This message has been edited by Battler (edited April 22, 2000).]
 
Heed the words of Yasser Arafat. "Never sleep in the same bed twice."

It kept the Israelis from getting to him.
 
Standing way over here on the "cold dead fingers" side of the room I gotta wonder...are you really Janet Reno in disquise? Practicing to submit??? Spoken like a true statist. Keep up the good work, Algore is on his way with your reward...yeah, I know you're most likely very serious and concerned for our safety, and thank-you very much but no thank-you. My doors are secured and it will take enough force to open them that I will be awake and hopefully be able to take at least one with me. Wow, this is sounding pretty harsh I guess, but my thought is to make the forces of oppression so nervous about coming thru anybody's door that it makes them think twice. Is this invasion of somebody's home important enough to have officers killed?... that kind of thing. This is what your rights are really all about. Stay safe.

[This message has been edited by nwgunman (edited April 22, 2000).]
 
" Surviving unexpected dynamic entry by guys in ski masks "
Not too long ago that sort of entry was not made by LEOs, therefore prima facie bad guys coming in.
The dark clothing at night was urban camo, the ski masks precluded identification in the unlikely event of a survivor.
The MO was generaly three or more, crash in, shoot anyone not wearing a mask, take hostage and/or property, and split.
Two ways to survive. Get lucky and stay hidden while your family was executed; or meet em with superior firepower and marksmanship as they entered. The bad guys have had kevlar and full autos all along, bad situation at best.
Bounty hunters started doing it that way. Now the " good guys " are usin bad guys tactics.
How sad.

------------------
Sam I am, grn egs n packin

Nikita Khrushchev predicted confidently in a speech in Bucharest, Rumania on June 19, 1962 that: " The United States will eventually fly the Communist Red Flag...the American people will hoist it themselves."
 
[sneer]

You don't need a class. The next time you wake up with a full bladder, clinch your hands to your side and urinate all over yourself.

[/sneer]
 
Guys, I believe Battler is exercising literary irony...and you who just condemned him would not survive to fight another day....a day when you weren't caught unawares and could possibly do something.

Think about it

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"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes" RKBA!
 
DC,

Battler claimed he was serious. I took him at his word.

Battler: If you're indulging in humor, my apologies. I still am humor-impaired after the events of Holy Saturday and some of the reactions of supposed RKBA-types and LEOs.
 
If we train ourselves and prepare for both types of home invasion, how then do we choose to react when roused from a deep sleep with noises indicating B&E? Do we grab our gun and pee ourselves or lay motionless on the floor and yell "Die Scum bags"?

------------------
If you're not a little upset with the way the world is going, you're not paying attention.

[This message has been edited by John Marshall (edited April 23, 2000).]
 
Well, regardless of Battler's intent, consider how fascinating it is that we would even have this conversation. Maybe that was his intent.

There is a part of me that also wonders if Jews considered similar training in the 1930's.

Some of this is becoming surreal, no?

If you liked the War on Drugs, you're gonna love the War on Guns.

Regards from AZ
 
This controversial bit has barely begun. I highly recommmend to be wary of trolls and flames.

My $.02
 
I'm sorry all for any anger caused.

Was my post a troll, a warning, or serious? Part of it was serious, part of it was trolling, part was warning, and part was letting off steam.

If I ever find myself laughing at everything, it's through my tears.

It's partially in response to seeing the same people who say that individuals should not possess weapons, that it's not in the "collective good", and that guns and kids don't mix, pointing a (banned a long time ago, eh?) MP5 in a little kid's face.

I am in the fight firearms prohibition POLITICALLY camp; but even those who would go further may balk at their families being used for 9mm ballistics testing. We discuss on these forums whether our chosen self-defense ammo will penetrate walls - scr** that, what's the penetration of ammo traditionally used in a full-auto MP5 in the hands of a spooked agent?

They sent in the "big guns" because there were "guns in the house". Well, like many of you, I've signed some yellow forms - whether I sell/hand them in or not, there will always be "guns in the house".

And I DID have to pause and wonder if, in my safe neighborhood, where I probably have more chance of being hit by Halley's comet than having a criminal intruder, whether or not I should choose to automatically submit - trusting the odds that whoever it is most likely is there with a no-knock warrant.

Sorry if I offended/misled anyone. My original message was never that coherent, I'm not that coherent on the subject.

I'm a troll, a patriot, a fool, a philosopher, a political activist, a slave, a fearless rebel, a pragmatist, a gun nut, a snivelling coward, an intellectual, and a concerned parent.


Battler.
 
Battler, et al: Hey, no hu-hu. I am just being a little facetous here: "...Janet Reno?" I'm sure you're much better looking! I was hoping that my post(s) come across more as somewhat humorous rather than rabid-dog, macho posturing, with a little bit of good old American cantankerousness thrown in. And God forbid that we strive for absolute coherency and seriousness here. If you lose your sense of humor...you lose. That said, Happy Easter all, Praise the Lord and Pass the Ammo!
 
battler,

I took you exactly at what I believe you said & think I was spot on in your initial analysis. A combination of various prose, if I may.

If a "dynamic entry" happens (by the good guys), you can kiss your a$$ goodbye.

The "good guys" will steal your lively-hood, trash your house, & screw you forevermore in a court battle. They will never "leave you alone." You may live through the vent.

The "bad guys" may "only" rape your wife, steal your goods, but they will leave you alone after they get what they want. You may live through the event.

Which is worse?

That they are there in the first place means that they are there to do your harm (physical or monetary, at the very least) & you are screwed.

If you attempt any self-defense, you will die - especially from "the good guys." After all, you get to pay for their equipment & training - & they do have the very best.

Your best bet is to lie down, butt-up & submit. You may be alive to fight them later in a "court of law."

Personally, I will use every opportunity left to me to prevent the absolute terror that our own governmet perpetutates against us for no good cause.

That these type "efforts" are even available in these United States is totally unacceptable to me.

That we even have to have this type discussion is totally unacceptable.

Now & forever.
 
Y'know, if I was a regular old traffic cop in Anytown,USA I would be getting pretty upset at the way the federal "law enforcement" people are giving the entire LEO community a bad name.

There is a big difference between Barney Fife and G-man George.
I was watching the tube and saw that Miami cop (Lt.Swartz?) being asked to answer for the behavior of the baclava bandits.
If you don't recall, he was that lone officer that was being mobbed outside the house later in the day.
The interviewer was grilling him about the MP5 in the face and other things, and he said that he's just a Miami cop and he personally didn't know about the raid until five minutes prior.

The vast majority of the country is getting the idea that all cops are like those early morning raiders.
They're not.
As far as gun confiscation, it's not going to be the local cops kicking in your door.
It'll be feds.

I'm not really sure what my exact point is, I'm just commenting on what I see.
What I see is that the federal "law enforcement" is totally out of control.

Also, if you have "hardened" your home enough, this isn't going to be a huge issue.

I'm not able to do this yet, as I live in an apt. right now (just until I'm out of college), but I've got an idea how I'll toughen up my home.

Double sets of solid doors, at least one with a steel core, both with dead bolts.
Maybe a crossbar too.
Chain-link fence around the perimeter with motion sensor lighting.
I'm also planning on making a windowless "safe room" (floor to ceiling cinderblocks ar all four walls, then covered with sheetrock and painted so it doesn't look ugly, vault door, etc.) so that (A)I don't have to invest in gun safes, the entire room will be a "vault" and (B)if/when it becomes apparent that the home is under attack I can retreat to the safe room.

This may sound spendy, but it really won't be so bad. I've figured that for a bit over $5000 I can build the safe room. Some people spend more than that redoing a bathroom or kitchen.
Also, this may sound paranoid. Call it what you will but in addition to typical criminals I am concerned about the possibility of a wrong-address raid by LEO's.
With the fence and two solid doors I ought to have enough warning to get to the safe room and call (via cell phone) 911.
I better stop rambling now, or this single post may go over 100K and the thread'll get locked down.
-Kframe
 
Oh, just one more thing.
If you can afford it, wire your home with audio and video equipment.
After the events in Little Havana, and after watching "Rules of Engagement", it is clear that A/V documentation can save you alot of trouble later (that is, if the JBT's don't kill you first).
It would make sense to have the wires run to some secure location where the "federal law enforcement" won't be able to find/seize the videotape.
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Man, it really says something about the state of the union when law-abiding persons such as ourselves need to seriously consider such measures to protect ourselves from those persons in our employ, that is, the Government.
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-Kframe
 
As my door splinters in, and I reach for my longarm as my eyes slide open, I will assume---since I am "the good guy"(t)---that I am under criminal attack, and behave accordingly.

It behooves us all to realistically assess the threats we may face, which is why I laugh when folks say things about revolvers "being enough, because gunfights only last 1.345673546353 seconds", or similar nonsense. Train for the bad days, then the rest are easy.

------------------
What do you want?
Freedom to live like we are.
Anything else?
Guns, so they can't take the freedom away!
I'll see what I can do-
And grenades, mortars, and mines, so they can't take the guns away!
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>which is why I laugh when folks say things about revolvers "being enough, because gunfights only last 1.345673546353 seconds"
[/quote]

Next time tell than that only revolver users die that fast...the rest of us keep fighting a wee bit longer. :D
 
Krame19,
I would not be so sure that the local pd wont be involved if firearms become a confiscated item.......after all wasnt that police men in miami "just an ordinary cop,who only minutes before found out"......
If you search the threads there should beolder discussions on safe rooms etc., and some interesting film that the home owner can apply to his windows auto and home which increases the windows ability to hold, as well as other neat tricks......The video cameras are a good idea and I like outward looking sets that cover the inlooking sets, .....but this type of security gets expensive. I dont think cinder block will protect your firearms from an intruder with time.......There is a company out of memphis which specializes in putting in safe rooms that are hidden.....I dont recall the name att, but perhaps someone else will......fubsy.
 
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