sub 17 caliber
- Thread starter Solitar
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Quantum Singularity
New member
A .12 cal firearm for defense? Maybe, if it was possible to drive the velocity up to c (light speed). Else, it would be a needlegun as you mentioned.
[This message has been edited by Quantum Singularity (edited October 07, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by Quantum Singularity (edited October 07, 2000).]
My dad has an example of what he has only been told is a "gambler gun." It's about an inch long, maybe less, and less than 3/4 of an inch high. It fires a 2mm slug from a pinfire cartridge. You read that right. I can't imagine how it could be of any possible use for self-defense, but a guy dad knows who buys and sells them often showed him an old advertisement he'd purchased. It clearly touts the advantage of a tiny gun no one can detect. No big claims about stopping power, though. 
This is very different from your needle gun idea; the slug is apparently proportioned about the same as your average handgun bullet, scaled down to 2 mm diameter. It can't be more than a couple of grains. We haven't screwed with the one cartridge dad has; they cost about $40 apiece and are hard to find.
This is very different from your needle gun idea; the slug is apparently proportioned about the same as your average handgun bullet, scaled down to 2 mm diameter. It can't be more than a couple of grains. We haven't screwed with the one cartridge dad has; they cost about $40 apiece and are hard to find.
Must be moving over 4,400fps.
Must be cycling at over 1,200rpm
Usefull only against oposition wearing body armor.
To focus the propulsive force properly you are going to want this weapon to utilize liquid propellant and a conical reaction chamber.
Ballistics would be remarkable, but effects on unarmored targets would be dissapointing.
Human flesh would not cause the projectile to begin to deform or tumble. Punching through a laminate or kevlar would actualy be an essencial part of such a flechette-type projectile's destructive process.
A weapon of this type would have little homedefense utility as it would be selectfire, expensive, and decidedly armor-piercing.
Think of a super-P90.
Must be cycling at over 1,200rpm
Usefull only against oposition wearing body armor.
To focus the propulsive force properly you are going to want this weapon to utilize liquid propellant and a conical reaction chamber.
Ballistics would be remarkable, but effects on unarmored targets would be dissapointing.
Human flesh would not cause the projectile to begin to deform or tumble. Punching through a laminate or kevlar would actualy be an essencial part of such a flechette-type projectile's destructive process.
A weapon of this type would have little homedefense utility as it would be selectfire, expensive, and decidedly armor-piercing.
Think of a super-P90.
The science fiction author Gene Wolf described just such weapons in his "Book of the Long Sun" series. His were electrostatically or magnetically launched (it's been years since I read the books, so I don't remember exactly) flat-tipped metallic needles. According to Wolfe, the flat tips were to promote tumbling. The advantage of larger guns lay in that they held more needles, as increasing the size of the needle itself didn't necessarily make it more effective. The descriptions of the guns in use led one to believe the wounds were of a cutting/tearing nature as the tumbling needle buzzsawed through flesh. Wolfe is a good read when it comes to imaginative hardware, as he is a mechanical engineer. Other than his writing, his other big claim to fame is that he designed the machine that makes Pringles potato chips.
Don,
Two millimeters! If a source for lots of rounds could be found, it might make a decent mousegun I mean a real "mouse" gun because a few grains of lead would be huge to a 5 gram mouse - a grain per gram whereas humans only get a grain per pound. Maybe the elves could be persuaded to make some for Christmas.
Shin-Tao,
You nicely explain the advantages of such a weapon shooting 60 grain needles. Stopping power would be nil since it may take some time before the target realized they'd been perforated. But quickly stopping bleeding from all those internal and external holes would be impossible. Add a little anti-coagulant and the target would go into hemorrhagic shock. Even one or two rounds would be effective - eventually.
"What's wrong Joe, you look pale."
"I don't know. I just feel weak and my guts hurt."
"Strip. We gotta see if you got bit by something."
"Damn, he's got several little holes in his abdomen and over his kidneys. Joe, have you been peeing blood?"
"Yep"
"Oh, God! Must've been a sniper. And here we are hundreds of miles from base and we can't get an evac in here without tipping our location."
"Pete, our location is already tipped! We gotta get Joe out of here or he's done for."
"Sorry Joe"
"That's okay, you guys go on. I'll just stay here and sleep."
Two millimeters! If a source for lots of rounds could be found, it might make a decent mousegun
I mean a real "mouse" gun because a few grains of lead would be huge to a 5 gram mouse - a grain per gram whereas humans only get a grain per pound. Maybe the elves could be persuaded to make some for Christmas.Shin-Tao,
You nicely explain the advantages of such a weapon shooting 60 grain needles. Stopping power would be nil since it may take some time before the target realized they'd been perforated. But quickly stopping bleeding from all those internal and external holes would be impossible. Add a little anti-coagulant and the target would go into hemorrhagic shock. Even one or two rounds would be effective - eventually.
"What's wrong Joe, you look pale."
"I don't know. I just feel weak and my guts hurt."
"Strip. We gotta see if you got bit by something."
"Damn, he's got several little holes in his abdomen and over his kidneys. Joe, have you been peeing blood?"
"Yep"
"Oh, God! Must've been a sniper. And here we are hundreds of miles from base and we can't get an evac in here without tipping our location."
"Pete, our location is already tipped! We gotta get Joe out of here or he's done for."
"Sorry Joe"
"That's okay, you guys go on. I'll just stay here and sleep."
Shin Tao,
As I understand your description, you visualize the flechette as a non-tumbling projectile. Why would you expect the projectile to shatter bone rather than simply punch through it? If the projectile is nondeforming and nontumbling, then you are simply describing a high speed ice pick. Living bone is fairly flexible and resilient, so at most I think you might see some splitting.
As I understand your description, you visualize the flechette as a non-tumbling projectile. Why would you expect the projectile to shatter bone rather than simply punch through it? If the projectile is nondeforming and nontumbling, then you are simply describing a high speed ice pick. Living bone is fairly flexible and resilient, so at most I think you might see some splitting.
Here are some links regarding caliber and effecacy:
http://members.aol.com/okjoe/handguna.htm http://members.aol.com/okjoe/handgunb.htm
(Two URL's for two pages) This is FBI, Justice Dept. data. Two factors for effective bullet config. -- diameter and penetration.
Diameter is crucial because of the wound channel it creates, and because a larger diameter bullet is more likely to hit/damage a vital organ. The down side of a 22 mag. bullet -- even though it delivers MORE muzzle energy than a 25 ACP is that it does not produce a sufficient wound channel. Small wound channels close up and blood loss is minimized.
Always opt for a larger diameter bullet in a handgun.
http://members.aol.com/okjoe/handguna.htm http://members.aol.com/okjoe/handgunb.htm
(Two URL's for two pages) This is FBI, Justice Dept. data. Two factors for effective bullet config. -- diameter and penetration.
Diameter is crucial because of the wound channel it creates, and because a larger diameter bullet is more likely to hit/damage a vital organ. The down side of a 22 mag. bullet -- even though it delivers MORE muzzle energy than a 25 ACP is that it does not produce a sufficient wound channel. Small wound channels close up and blood loss is minimized.
Always opt for a larger diameter bullet in a handgun.
Shin-Tao,
If you mean what I think you mean by hydrostatic shock, then it is a killer when temporary cavitation exceeds the elasticity of the tissue. With low mass projectiles, velocity tends to drop off rather quickly. I think these flechettes would create rather little hydrostatic shock at anything but very close range. I'd still like to see such a weapon developed, none the less.
If you mean what I think you mean by hydrostatic shock, then it is a killer when temporary cavitation exceeds the elasticity of the tissue. With low mass projectiles, velocity tends to drop off rather quickly. I think these flechettes would create rather little hydrostatic shock at anything but very close range. I'd still like to see such a weapon developed, none the less.
George Hill
Staff Alumnus
Ah, the staple of William Gibson's Molly.
Looking at the individual projectile is to leave out the basis for the guns ability.
Namely to deliver neurotoxins and other such goodies... Of course when the gun is firing at its slow cyclic setting of 12,000 RPM - you will get some very nice effects that a single projectile will not give you.
Read "THE DIAMOND AGE". The villan at the begining of the book has a Nanotech device called a SKULL GUN. The potency of the gun comes from the nanotech in the projectile...
the molecules of the slug explode out in a daisy-cutter fasion that causes severe internal lacerations. So while the slug wasnt all that balitically remarkable - the wound was.
All of these are much better than the normal standard of common "Treck" sci-fi - the Phaser.
The "blaster" of Star Wars fame is somewhat more effective in that it causes severe chared wounds that would be most nasty. Very similar to the blaster pistols from Battlestar Galactica (Search for that thread seperately)
However the most effective sci-fi gun would be the PGP of Babylon 5 origin. This little pistol, about the size of a Kahr MK9 hits with some very high force. When firing, there is atmospheric disturbance around the muzzle. What causes this is not clear. Probably heat... I guess this because there was an episode where Garibaldi was shot with this weapon and the wound looked like a combination of a bullet wound and severe burn. I'ld take 2 PGPs and a Storm Troopers Blaster Rifle...
Oh course my default favorite is the Caseless 10MM firing M41A Pulse Rifle from Aliens... but we are talking pistols here...
[This message has been edited by George Hill (edited October 11, 2000).]
Looking at the individual projectile is to leave out the basis for the guns ability.
Namely to deliver neurotoxins and other such goodies... Of course when the gun is firing at its slow cyclic setting of 12,000 RPM - you will get some very nice effects that a single projectile will not give you.
Read "THE DIAMOND AGE". The villan at the begining of the book has a Nanotech device called a SKULL GUN. The potency of the gun comes from the nanotech in the projectile...
the molecules of the slug explode out in a daisy-cutter fasion that causes severe internal lacerations. So while the slug wasnt all that balitically remarkable - the wound was.
All of these are much better than the normal standard of common "Treck" sci-fi - the Phaser.
The "blaster" of Star Wars fame is somewhat more effective in that it causes severe chared wounds that would be most nasty. Very similar to the blaster pistols from Battlestar Galactica (Search for that thread seperately)
However the most effective sci-fi gun would be the PGP of Babylon 5 origin. This little pistol, about the size of a Kahr MK9 hits with some very high force. When firing, there is atmospheric disturbance around the muzzle. What causes this is not clear. Probably heat... I guess this because there was an episode where Garibaldi was shot with this weapon and the wound looked like a combination of a bullet wound and severe burn. I'ld take 2 PGPs and a Storm Troopers Blaster Rifle...
Oh course my default favorite is the Caseless 10MM firing M41A Pulse Rifle from Aliens... but we are talking pistols here...
[This message has been edited by George Hill (edited October 11, 2000).]
If you ever get a chance, read Gene Wolfe's book of essays called "The Castle of the Otter." One of the essays deals with the return of cavalry on future battlefields. briefly, through genetic engineering we will be able soon to create all manner of interesting hybrid creatures. Consider a warhorse that can run as fast as a cheetah, for example. He examines cavalry charges vs. infantry weapon rates of fire from a historical viewpoint and then postulates future scenarios. An altogether fascinating essay. Wolfe's background as an engineer makes his futuristic weaponry far more believable and interesting than typical sci-fi zapguns.
George Hill
Staff Alumnus
Horse Cavalry?
Well - they can make a Chopper's rotors be able to withstand heavy small arms hits.
A horse that can suck up .50 cal hits would be interesting.
Well - they can make a Chopper's rotors be able to withstand heavy small arms hits.
A horse that can suck up .50 cal hits would be interesting.
I don't want to reproduce Wolfe's essay here and violate his copyright, but he did address the "bullet-proof horse" issue in that essay.
Back in feudal times, horses wore armor like the knights riding them. "Barding", I think it was called. Wolfe postulates kevlar body armor for these enhanced mounts (destriers is the word he uses for them) and their riders. He does some calculations regarding how many shots defending infantry could get off while the cavalry charges across the intervening ground at 60+mph. The cavalry would be delivering suppressive fire of its own at the same time. He also notes that although the defenders may have time to fire a given weapon a certain number of times, it is difficult to hit a target moving at that rate of speed. The essay then goes on to examine how weapons would change in response to this new form of cavalry. If it is of enough interest to you, George, I'll see if I can locate my copy of the book and somehow get a copy of the essay to you. I suspect, though, that it may be available on the web somewhere.
Back in feudal times, horses wore armor like the knights riding them. "Barding", I think it was called. Wolfe postulates kevlar body armor for these enhanced mounts (destriers is the word he uses for them) and their riders. He does some calculations regarding how many shots defending infantry could get off while the cavalry charges across the intervening ground at 60+mph. The cavalry would be delivering suppressive fire of its own at the same time. He also notes that although the defenders may have time to fire a given weapon a certain number of times, it is difficult to hit a target moving at that rate of speed. The essay then goes on to examine how weapons would change in response to this new form of cavalry. If it is of enough interest to you, George, I'll see if I can locate my copy of the book and somehow get a copy of the essay to you. I suspect, though, that it may be available on the web somewhere.
Rakekniven
New member
Anyone else find the brass being ejected by the supposedly caseless Pulse Rifle to be entertaining?
(Not to knock Aliens or anything, as I do enjoy that movie.)
(Not to knock Aliens or anything, as I do enjoy that movie.)