Stupid Question

G

Gary Conner

New member
I know this sounds dumb, but when looking at single action colt frontiers, Peacemakers, etc., and the description the seller lists says "Black Powder Frame" how do you go about telling a black powder frame handgun, from one that is not a black powder frame?

Is it the serial number that tells you or is there a difference in apperance of the frames, or what? Was there a certain date they switched over?
 
There are really two different things going on here.
The early Colt SAAs had a screw coming in from the front at an angle to retain the base pin. This is known as the "black powder frame."

Colt later "modernized" with the spring loaded base pin latch going across the frame, allowing the cylinder to be removed without a screwdriver.

This is sometimes known as the "smokeless frame" but is not strictly correct. Colt changed the base pin retainer about 1892 and did not recommend their guns for smokeless powder until 1896, so there were four years in there when a black powder gun had a "smokeless frame".

Dates and serial numbers given vary from source to source. Blue Book gives different serial number ranges in the text and in charts in the back of the same book, for example. There was some overlap anyhow, as Colt used parts on hand, so there is not really a precise cutoff.

Naturally all modern SAAs whether Colt or a copy are ok for smokeless powder no matter whether they have a "black powder frame" with base pin screw or not.
 
Stupid answer

The generic answer is going to have to do with either how beefy the frame is (appearnce) or how beefy the alloy is (not visible)? In other words, some will have a visible design change, while others, quite intentionally, will be made to replicate original BP design lines (though likely not Colts, themselves, but other makers), but using more modern metalurgy.

To be safe, you're going to have to check with the factory or a collectors group on a serial and model number basis to learn about individual guns.

Nick
 
quite intentionally, will be made to replicate original BP design lines (though likely not Colts, themselves, but other makers), but using more modern metalurgy.
Click to expand...

Colt still does BP frames in their SAA line

WildjustanasideAlaska
 
Wild,

Are they doing it with metalurgy that will withstand modern cartridges? I would assume so. I don't shoot Cowboy, as you can tell. Interesting to learn Colt is actively replicating itself in that detail. I hadn't realized it, but I suppose it makes sense, given the popularity of CA events. The CA shooters seem to have practically taken over our club some days. And I have to admit to having cast the occassional lustful eye on the Bisley frame Vaquero. . .

Nick
 
Colts frame metallurgy is the same, just the frame style is different, I have two new SAAs in stock with BP frames btw

WildjustapitchAlaska
 
To be a little more clear:

There are original Colt SAA's as made in the 1800's that were black powder guns and NOT safe for smokeless powder.
After the late 1890's the frames were made of better steels and heat treating to allow use with the more powerful smokeless powders.

Today, Colt and companies that make modern replicas of original Colt SAA's offer guns in black powder STYLE frames.
The early 1800's frames had certain differences like the screw retention for the cylinder pin and other small differences.

The modern guns are made for use with modern powders, but LOOK like old, original black powder guns.
It's usually these modern guns that are advertised as having "black powder" or "smokeless powder" frames.

All of these guns are made of modern steels and heat treating and can shoot modern ammo, but for Cowboy shooters and collectors they are made to LOOK like original black powder versions.
 
Actually, the "smokeless powder" Colts were not made of "better steel", they were made of steel. The early frames were made of wrought iron; they were originally case hardened for durability since iron can't be hardened like steel can.

FWIW, the usual cut-off serial given for black/smokeless is 165,000 (1896), but as noted by others, that is an approximation.

Jim
 
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