Stupid Question of the Day: 9mm & .38 Special

F

FUD

Moderator
I've always accepted this at face value and I've even supplied real-world "proof" to others but I've been thinking ...

I'm holding a 115gr 9mm round in one hand and a 125gr .38 special round in the other haand. Both Marshall & Sanow and The Fackerites agree that the 9mm round has superior stopping power over the .38 special because of it's higher velocity (1225 vs 945) and greater energy (383 vs 248) but looking at the two rounds, why couldn't the .38 special be loaded to a higher velocity and greater energy than the 9mm? After all, more gunpowder could fit inside the .38 round since it's about 40-50% taller than the 9mm round.

Share what you know, learn what you don't -- FUD
fud-nra.gif
 
Ive often wondered the same. I cant wait to hear the reasoning behind this !

Tim :)

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Why dont you get rid of that nickel plated sissy pistol and get yourself a glock. :::Tommy Lee Jones. U.S. Marshals:::
 
I suspect the pressure limits of the case would be exceeded if ya just filled it to the top and pounded the bullet in? :)

I've seen the 38S loaded to around 1100 fps w the 125, though most factory loads don't go there.

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I suspect one of the reasons the .38 Spcl. has not been "hotrodded" more has to do with the vast number of old M&P revolvers still in circulation that won't handle the extra pressure. Just look at the .44 Spcl., Keith proved what it could do in strong revolvers yet factory ammo is still under powered for this cartridge and there is a lot more old weak .38's out there than .44 Spcls. Also the .357 mag was developed 20 yrs before the .44 mag so there was no need to "load up " the .38 just buy a .357. I believe Skeeter Skelton use to load up what he called a "poor man's .357" using .38 spcl cases and long seating a 158 SWC by crimping in the 1st lube ring (thus making it too long to chamber in a .38) and loading it over a stout charge of 2400. This tells me the cases will handle greater pressure. regards, birdman
 
The .38 special has been around for a long time. Originally, it was a black powder cartridge. When smokeless powder came out and higher case pressure became an issue, the pistols of that era were NOT safe to shoot these new cartridges. I'm sure that the .38 special case can be loaded with more powder now, and that that the "newer" pistols would be able to handle that much pressure. I suppose it's a liability situation for the ammo manufacturers. I'm sure there are others that know a lot more about than I do.- just my thoughts. goodshot
 
In the old days ( wheelguns ) we used the 147gr. Hydra-shoks which were developed almost by accident when the FBI was testing
9mm ammo. This bullet apparently performed as well ( almost ) as the .45 and the .357
 
Yep, pressure, pressure, pressure. The cartridge case and guns for which they are designed/manufactured (even still today - that's why some .38s are designated for +P, and some are not) are not strong enough by a long shot to contain the pressures of a 9mmP loading.
 
Fud,

Respectfully, I though that's what the .357 magnum was: a .38 Special cartridge case (shape and size, not necessarily wall-thickness), with a larger propellant load, and usually a slightly heavier projectile (130 grains versus 158 grains). Have I missed something?
 
I think Birdman nailed it.
Just like the .45 Colt can be loaded hotter than the .44 Magnum before case failure becomes an issue.
What is the issue is cylinder failure.

No ammo company will load the .45LC to its full potential. They are scared stiff that some moron would drop one into his 1st Gen SAA and blow up his gun, his hand, etc.

I do believe that the .38 can be loaded hotter than what the reloading manuals list.
This is supported by the fact that .38's of the early 20th Century pushed 158's at about 1000-1100fps.
You won't find any major company pushing the 158's beyond about 900 these days.

I think it depends on the gun you will use.
I do shoot really hot .38s through some very-recently made guns, and I don't worry about it.
But, those reloads are clearly labeled and kept far away from my M&P made in 1916.
Heck, those don't get shot through anything earlier than 1980.

I don't let anyone else use my reloads, and I won't use anyone elses in my guns.

I'm not going to list the data I use in my reloads, and I'm not suggesting that anyone ignore SAAMI spec and current reloading data.
If you do want to load some hot ammo, proceed at your own risk.

-Kframe
 
I have too wondred about this. But, I did until taking a gun safty corse last year where the instructor at the range showed us an old Colt Police Positive that had half the cylinder missing and the top of the frame gone too. He explained that some guy messing with reloading tried to pack the case with powder and if blew the gun up.
 
MrBlonde, yes, but it was an OLD Colt PP.

New guns, like the S&W M586 in .38 Special can handle much higher pressures than the older Colt's, older S&W's, etc.

I know the chamber walls are as thick on the .38 M586 as they are on the .357 M586, but I don't know if they have the same heat-treating.

So, I don't think I'd ever try to push a .38 as hot as a .357 (that's why I own some .357s too) but I've got no problem loading my modern .38s with "real" .38 loads, not the current wussy factory loadings.
:)
-Kframe
 
Winchester played this game at one time, a LONG time ago...

They loaded a line of "Hi Speed" cartridges in a number of calibers such as .32-20, .44-40, and .38-40. I think they may have done the same for .45-70.

These rounds were for use ONLY in guns like the Model 1892 Winchester lever action, ones that could take the higher pressures.

The boxes were printed with warnings that the rounds were NOT to be used in older guns like the 1873 Winchester or black powder Colt SAAs.

Well, people were as stupid back then as they are today. Lots of people ignored the warnings and turned older guns into scrap metal.

Only back then the immediate answer wasn't to sue the manufacturer. It was to take your lumps and live with the consequences of your stupidity, which was normally bulged sideplates and broken locking blocks on 1873 Winchesters and cracked cylinders and stretched frames on old SAAs.

Can you imagine what would happen today were that to happen? Lawsuits. LOTS of lawsuits.
 
The hot-loaded .38Sp is called the .357 Mag! :) Seriously, when the .38Sp was developed, I believe it was a black powder round, so it had the case size it does. Nowadays, nobody wants to load the .38Sp to higher pressures, since there are lots of really old .38Sp guns that wouldn't stand up to the hotter ammo.
 
OK let's settle this. I have a .38 spl pointed at my left foot and a 9mm pointed at my right foot. Now if I fire both simultaneously, what do I watch for? Shall I measure exit wound diameter, blood loss or volume of the yell?
 
Isn't that exactly what the old Super-Vel loads were and the more current Cor-Bon and Triton loads? Corbon used to load a 115 grain bullet to 1250 fps but I believe their current 110 grain load is a bit milder. Cor-Bon told me once that the old load was loaded to 27 or 28,000 psi and an old article by either Wiley Clapp or Walt Rauch..forget who..measure it at over 30,000 psi. Sounds like .357 in a .38 case territory to me.

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Lazarus
 
I'm wondering if it's because they are comparing standard loadings i.e. a 158grain in a .38Special as compared to a 115/124grain 9mm. In essence there is no comparison (Apples to Oranges).....
 
That is correct. I don't know of any .38 Special 115gr factory loads.
I have shot some of the Win 110gr +P+ stuff, so as far as bullet weight that is the closest I've seen.

Heck, I don't put a whole lot of thought into weights, velocities, bullet design, etc.

If you put it where it's supposed to go, a .380 will work as well as a .45 ACP.

Not saying they are equal by any means, but for most folks it is easier to place good hits with "weaker" calibers.
So, if you can't hit $h!t with a .357 but can nail anything that moves with your .32 ACP, then that is the "best" cartridge for you.

For me, it's not a good idea to attack me when I've got my .38 Special.
You'd actually have a better chance of getting away alive if I had my 1911A1 in .45 with me.
-Kframe
 
Oh, but they have done the hot-rodded .45 Colt thing. It's commonly known as .454 Casull. This round came from reloaders (especially Dick Casull) playing with .45 Colt loads in the then-new Ruger Super Blackhawk the same way .44 mag grew out of Elmer Keith and the boys diddling with the .44 spl.

The case is a tick longer for the same reasons: imagine someone stuffing a .454 into grandpaws black powder-framed Peacemaker?

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"..but never ever Fear. Fear is for the enemy. Fear and Bullets."
10mm: It's not the size of the Dawg in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog!
 
Now to really confuse the issue. Back in the late 20s and early 30s before the .357 was invented, there was a cartridge called the 38-44 Heavy Duty. This was indeed a .38 Spl case loaded to .357 presures and velocities.(possably a bit more!) The 38-44 HD was to be used only in large frame guns like the S&W N-frame. In fact the name comes from it being a .38 cal cartridge fired in a .44 cal frame. The problem with it was that it WAS the same size as the .38 Spl and puttin' one of these into a standard .38 of that time was not a good thing. A few years later somebody lengthened the case a little and started calling it "Magnum".

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TFL's official "Curmudgeon Member" and damned proud of it!
 
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