Stoeger? Beretta?

P

Profiler

Inactive
So the Beretta 8000 is legal but the Stoeger is not listed as legal...

Is this just a mistake on CA DOJ's part? Beretta does not offer the 8000 line (Cougar) and their subsidiary Stoeger is making it.

Am I nuts? Are they nuts?

Any insight is appreciated, because I'm in CA and this would be the perfect carry to my 92 FS...


Profiler....:o
 
Neither gun has ever been legal in my state so you're one up on me and I envy you. I'm a big Beretta fan so not having the choice really hurts....

Laura
 
Since differences in the finishes applied to a given model of handgun are apparently grounds enough for your state to differentiate between guns for purposes of inclusion and exclusion, it's safe to say that the enforcing agency would view the exclusion of the Stoeger as the outcome that a proper application of their sorry rules dictates.
 
Touche!

to my friend Salvadore!

Alas... I am only at the edge of discovery regarding the ineptitude of bureaucratic laws and firearms...


[sigh.]

Profiler
 
Yeah... Ca is crazy when it comes to gun laws.

AS was mentioned... a manufacturer can simply change the finish of the pistol... changing its color or whatever... and that is enough to be considered a new model and must be put through the process for approvals.
 
alas...

I am learningquickly about the idiocy of the laws in the Great State...

Yeah we have weather, but... :eek:

I've decided I will go for a Sig, p239... Now to find it. In this process, I learned that in the City of Los Angeles, the sub-compact is just not available...

Wacky for sure!

Julie
 
I don’t know about sillycalafornia but the Beretta Cougar came out about the time that the polymer craze started and they didn’t sell very well. I have one and I like it much better than the 92. Better balance and much easier to carry.
The Cougar came out after the Clinton craze and used a different magazine than the 92 that only held 10 rounds. I think what happened was that Beretta knew that it was a good gun and very accurate due to the rotating barrel so they started designing a new polymer gun (PX4 Storm) and had Stoger start building the Cougar (They owned Stoger at the time) who has been building it for Years.
Beretta took the same barrel design and build it in the Storm.
As far as I know none of the Beretta’s came with 15 round magazines due to the Clintion magazine band but as soon at that slyness went away the deep vertical groves were removed from the mag and that is what’s being supplied with the Stoger Cougar. I do know that Stoger does sell the 10 round magazines so as long as you only own the 10 rounder it would be the same gun as the legal Beretta.
California as I understand it semi’s are limited to ten rounds. Guns made 1994 do not have a legal limit provided the magazine was purchased before 94 or 95. It allows one more way for the Gestapo to keep certain guns out of our collections.
So removing all logic from the decision, my guess is that since the Stoger is considered a new build (after 2000) and is sold with a 15 round magazine it’s a BAD gun. But if Stoger sold the gun as a Calafornia only and just the 10 rounder’s it might be legal. What's the chance that gun companies don't want to invest the money or effort to try to match CA's ever constant changing laws?
I have the Beretta 8000 and 12 Stoger 15 round magazines, I also have the Storm 9mm carbine that takes the same magazine.
http://www.stoegerindustries.com/shop/magazines
 
Beretta did make Cougars with magazine capacities greater than 10 rounds. The full-sized 9mm Cougar 8000 had a 15 rd capacity, the full sized .40 cal S&W 8040 an 11 rd capacity, and the full-sized .357 Sig 8357 an 11 round capacity.

Beretta also made the 9 mm and the .40 cal in "mini" sizes with a shortened grip on the frame. These had flush-fit magazine capacities of 10 rds or less, but accepted the mags for the full-sized versions and a grip extender sleeve was available for both calibers. Beretta also made a full-sized and mini Cougar 8045 in .45 cal ACP but because of the greater cartridge diameter mag capacity was less than 10 even for the full-sized version.

Beretta also made a "compact" 9 mm version, the 8000L with a grip length between that of the mini and full-sized which had a magazine capacity of 13 rds.
 
Remember that in order to get on that "approved" list, the manufacturer has to be the one to submit the firearm for testing. No submission = not on the list. Likely that Beretta has simply chosen not to bother submitting the Stoeger version for testing.
 
This discussion prompted some additional reading on my part.

I didn't know that Beretta owned Stoeger. New info for me.

I didn't know that Stoeger MADE guns; for years the only guns that carried the Stoeger mark were guns made elsewhere, but imported by Stoeger.

Stoeger became a manufacturer in 2005 and is now the one of the larger ones, based in Turkey.

These are things I wouldn't have learned had I not been reading this discussion.
 
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Beretta did make Cougars with magazine capacities greater than 10 rounds.
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If they did it wasn’t many. The introduction of the cougar was in 1994 and the Federal Ban of large ammo feeding device ban of 1994 – 2004 by the lowlife Dianne Feinstine. When the CLINTON ban limited high cap magazines the Cougar was delivered with 10 round magazines. Pro Mag was the only company that I knew of that had already manufactured 15 shot magazines for the Cougar in 9mm. They put them on the market just before the ban went into effect.
Beretta stopped building the Cougar in 2004 at the end of the ban when it could be sold with high cap mags.
Granted other guns were being imported with larger capacity mags like the Glock but it was being imported well before 1994.
I think, and I may be wrong but the limit was imposed on new design guns imported after the ban and I can’t find proof that the Cougar came on the market before or after but I do know that when I bought mine in the first year of production you could not buy anything above 10 round magazines for it.
But within a couple of years you could purchase Pro Mag. Also when I purchased a PX4 carbine that uses the Cougar 8000 mag it also came with the 10 round magazines.
 
Quote:
Beretta did make Cougars with magazine capacities greater than 10 rounds.
If they did it wasn’t many. The introduction of the cougar was in 1994 and the Federal Ban of large ammo feeding device ban of 1994 – 2004 by the lowlife Dianne Feinstine. When the CLINTON ban limited high cap magazines the Cougar was delivered with 10 round magazines. Pro Mag was the only company that I knew of that had already manufactured 15 shot magazines for the Cougar in 9mm. They put them on the market just before the ban went into effect.
Beretta stopped building the Cougar in 2004 at the end of the ban when it could be sold with high cap mags.
Granted other guns were being imported with larger capacity mags like the Glock but it was being imported well before 1994.
I think, and I may be wrong but the limit was imposed on new design guns imported after the ban and I can’t find proof that the Cougar came on the market before or after but I do know that when I bought mine in the first year of production you could not buy anything above 10 round magazines for it.
But within a couple of years you could purchase Pro Mag. Also when I purchased a PX4 carbine that uses the Cougar 8000 mag it also came with the 10 round magazines.
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Click to expand...

I have three 15 round full size 9mm Cougar mags for my Beretta mini-Cougar 8000D (with the grip extender sleeves) and three 11 round full size .40 cal Cougar mags for my Beretta mini-Cougar 8040F (again with the grip extender sleeves.

All are Beretta factory magazines, made in Italy, with the appropriate stamps.
 
The difference is probably because Beretta applied for theirs to be on the list think it only last a year and Stoeger didn't want to go thru the hassle or cost.
If you are curious heres our DOJ approved list. If you check the list notice the dates.

http://certguns.doj.ca.gov
 
I have three 15 round full size 9mm Cougar mags for my Beretta
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I don't doubt that, I also have a large number of 15's. My point is that I don't think that Beretta delivered many during the time that Beretta was producing the Cougar but I cant find any data that says that they did.
When I bought mine and for several years all I could purchase (and I was working in a gun store at the time) were 10 round mags. And that was all the Beretta on line showed at the time. It wasn't until around the time that the 9mm carbine came out that I was able to get Beretta 15's.
 
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