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Steyr M95M Cartridge
- Thread starter w1cncy
- Start date
If you're lucky its chambered for 8mm Mauser.
The M1895 was originally chambered in 8x50mmR. In 1930 it was shortened and rechambered in 8x56mmR. During WWII some were rechambered again to 8mm Mauser.
If you have the full length rifle then odds are its 8x50mmR. If its been cut to carbine length then the latter to rounds are more likely.
On edit the M95M looks to be 8mm Mauser.
The M1895 was originally chambered in 8x50mmR. In 1930 it was shortened and rechambered in 8x56mmR. During WWII some were rechambered again to 8mm Mauser.
If you have the full length rifle then odds are its 8x50mmR. If its been cut to carbine length then the latter to rounds are more likely.
On edit the M95M looks to be 8mm Mauser.
tahunua001
New member
The eaisest way would be to try to chamber 8x56r it wont fit in 8x57 chambers but im not so sure about x57 in x56r chambers so i wont suggest that.
Jim Watson
New member
According to W.H.B. Smith, the base model Austrian M95 is 8x50R
A lot of the Stutzen carbines were converted to 8x56R.
Stamped "S" if done in Austria, "H" if done in Hungary.
Others, rifle and carbine, were converted to 8x57 Mauser.
Stamped "M" if done in Yugoslavia, /24 if done in Bulgaria.
A lot of the Stutzen carbines were converted to 8x56R.
Stamped "S" if done in Austria, "H" if done in Hungary.
Others, rifle and carbine, were converted to 8x57 Mauser.
Stamped "M" if done in Yugoslavia, /24 if done in Bulgaria.
tahunua001
New member
my hungarian 1895 carbine is stamped S.Stamped "S" if done in Austria, "H" if done in Hungary.
Jim Watson
New member
Well, it was the Austro-Hungarian Empire by then. I guess things got swapped around that Mr Smith did not seee.
tahunua001
New member
it's not on the receiver, it's on the top of the barrel near the receiver.
Doing my own research on this weapon, I found that the original military ammunition had steel bullets and these were covered in grease.
American Rifleman pg 46 June 1976, Dope Bag
Lubricated Bullets
Austro-Hungarian military rifle and machine gun rounds had a thin coating of grease on the unplated steel bullets. Jacketed bullets of many US Cal 30 Krag, British 303 and some European military rifle rounds had cannelures filled with lubricant. These were covered by the case neck and the chief purpose of the lubricant to serve as a seal
I totally disagree with the last sentance, the grease was there to prevent fouling, in fact, competitors regularly dipped their bullets in grease during matches.
The information on the Austrian rifle probably came from W.W Greener: The Gun and its Development, table, page 736. The table shows that the 1895 Mannlicher used a greased 248 grain steel bullet. From period literature, this Austrian bullet was an AP, probably to pierce the shields on front of field artillery and it was used in rifles and machine guns. Incidentally, we know that the 8mm Roth-Steyr pistol round had a steel, greased bullet. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/8mm_Roth-Steyr
American Rifleman pg 46 June 1976, Dope Bag
Lubricated Bullets
Austro-Hungarian military rifle and machine gun rounds had a thin coating of grease on the unplated steel bullets. Jacketed bullets of many US Cal 30 Krag, British 303 and some European military rifle rounds had cannelures filled with lubricant. These were covered by the case neck and the chief purpose of the lubricant to serve as a seal
I totally disagree with the last sentance, the grease was there to prevent fouling, in fact, competitors regularly dipped their bullets in grease during matches.
The information on the Austrian rifle probably came from W.W Greener: The Gun and its Development, table, page 736. The table shows that the 1895 Mannlicher used a greased 248 grain steel bullet. From period literature, this Austrian bullet was an AP, probably to pierce the shields on front of field artillery and it was used in rifles and machine guns. Incidentally, we know that the 8mm Roth-Steyr pistol round had a steel, greased bullet. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/8mm_Roth-Steyr
Blacktimberwolf
Moderator
Normally it's chambered in 8X57 IS , called 8mm Mauser.
Mike Irwin
Staff
"I totally disagree with the last sentance, the grease was there to prevent fouling, in fact, competitors regularly dipped their bullets in grease during matches."
I've never seen a cannelure on any of the military bullets from that era that would hold enough grease to be useful for lubricating the barrel to prevent fouling.
I don't know when asphaltum (or whatever it's called) started to be used to seal case necks on military rounds, but I always suspected it was in the 1920 or 1930s.
The Austrian bullets were greased probably to prevent rusting, as the unplated steel wouldn't have left any fouling.
I really wonder how much "armor piercing" capacity they had, as well, given that if the bullet jacket was hard enough to pierce plate steel it was going to play hell on the barrel of the gun.
I've never seen a cannelure on any of the military bullets from that era that would hold enough grease to be useful for lubricating the barrel to prevent fouling.
I don't know when asphaltum (or whatever it's called) started to be used to seal case necks on military rounds, but I always suspected it was in the 1920 or 1930s.
The Austrian bullets were greased probably to prevent rusting, as the unplated steel wouldn't have left any fouling.
I really wonder how much "armor piercing" capacity they had, as well, given that if the bullet jacket was hard enough to pierce plate steel it was going to play hell on the barrel of the gun.
The Austrian bullets were greased probably to prevent rusting, as the unplated steel wouldn't have left any fouling.
Grease would certainly reduce the rust rate. I do not believe that any grease, on the bullet, or in the cannelures, was there to provide a gas seal. When competitors dipped their bullets in grease, it was to prevent cupronickel fouling. Since the Austrian bullets were plain steel, with no coating to reduce friction between the bore and bullet, the grease was there to reduce friction. Even then, barrel wear was apparently severe, as stated in this 1916 account:
A TREATISE COVERING THE MANUFACTURE Of RIFLE CARTRIDGE CASES, BULLETS- 1916
http://archive.org/stream/cartridgemanufac00hamirich/cartridgemanufac00hamirich_djvu.txt
Cupro-nickel jacketed bullets are generally employed for military rifles and are used by the Belgian, British, Canadian, Danish, Italian, Roumanian, Russian, Spanish, and American governments. The German, Greek, Dutch, and Turkish governments use steel envelopes coated with cupro- nickel ; Austria uses greased steel, and Japan, copper. Bullets coated with cupro-nickel are likely to set up metallic fouling in the bore of the gun, consisting of streaks of metal which adhere to the lands and grooves in the bore.
Bullets with greased steel envelopes do not appear to cause metallic fouling, but they wear away the rifling in the gun much quicker.
The bullet used in the Swiss rifle cartridge is of a peculiar construction. The body is made of a hard lead alloy, provided with a nickel-plated steel envelope covering the point only, the remainder of the bullet being covered with paper lubricated with vaseline. The lower portion of the bullet which enters the cartridge case is smaller in diameter than the jacketed portion. The wounding power of this bullet is great, but its velocity is not as great as those provided with the full envelope
I looked for the google book that said the Austrian bullets were AP. Can't find it again, but it is my recollection that they wanted the bullets to shoot through the armor shields of mobile artillery. It is well known that American AP, which has a steel core, penetrates steel, wood, concrete, etc, much better than lead core ball.
Mike Irwin
Staff
"I do not believe that any grease, on the bullet, or in the cannelures, was there to provide a gas seal."
Ah... I think we're interpreting the purpose of any grease to be found in cannelures differently...
I don't think it was there to provide a gas seal...
I think it was there to provide a MOISTURE seal, hence my comment regarding asphaltum.
Yes, competitors at the National Matches did dip their bullets.
However, that was not standard military practice, and never had been. Cleaning to remove the metal fouling after firing was standard practice.
"Bullets with greased steel envelopes do not appear to cause metallic fouling, but they wear away the rifling in the gun much quicker."
OK, while I'm not 100% sure, I've never seen any indication that the amount of grease that was found on Austrian cartridges in this time frame was more than a very light coating.
Original packets of period Austrian ammunition I've seen have shown no evidence of a heavy coating of grease ever having been applied to the bullets.
A light coating would have protected the steel bullet against rusting, but certainly wouldn't have been enough to have any real effect on bullet friction passing through the barrel.
With regards to armor piercing, a hardened steel core is the general standard way of making AP ammunition.
Hardening a steel bullet jacket would be immensely counterproductive, unless they had a way of hardening only the non-bearing surface of the nose.
Ah... I think we're interpreting the purpose of any grease to be found in cannelures differently...
I don't think it was there to provide a gas seal...
I think it was there to provide a MOISTURE seal, hence my comment regarding asphaltum.
Yes, competitors at the National Matches did dip their bullets.
However, that was not standard military practice, and never had been. Cleaning to remove the metal fouling after firing was standard practice.
"Bullets with greased steel envelopes do not appear to cause metallic fouling, but they wear away the rifling in the gun much quicker."
OK, while I'm not 100% sure, I've never seen any indication that the amount of grease that was found on Austrian cartridges in this time frame was more than a very light coating.
Original packets of period Austrian ammunition I've seen have shown no evidence of a heavy coating of grease ever having been applied to the bullets.
A light coating would have protected the steel bullet against rusting, but certainly wouldn't have been enough to have any real effect on bullet friction passing through the barrel.
With regards to armor piercing, a hardened steel core is the general standard way of making AP ammunition.
Hardening a steel bullet jacket would be immensely counterproductive, unless they had a way of hardening only the non-bearing surface of the nose.
Hardening a steel bullet jacket would be immensely counterproductive, unless they had a way of hardening only the non-bearing surface of the nose.
I have never seen the stuff, I have Googled pictures but none are to be found of this ammunition. I want to see pictures showing greased bullets.
I assumed the whole bullet was steel, is it only the jacket? Is the core lead?
As for the asphalt coating, it could be a moisture seal. Comments by Bart B make me think maybe it was also a preventative measure in keeping the bullet from bonding to the case neck. I thought the stuff was there to prevent the bullet from being pushed in during feed by a semi or automatic weapon. But, I really do not know the official reason why the coating is there, and of the surplus ammunition I have disassembled, this practice is unique to the US.
Fire enough cupro nickel bullets in your barrels and you will be greasing your bullets. I shot a case of Iraqi 303 ball and that stuff left the classic lumpy clumps of bullet fouling. It took weeks (about six weeks) of soaking and patching with Sweets to reduce the clumps to a reasonable level. I do not know where to get all the ingredients for the aggressive copper removing solutions used prior to and around WW1. So, I resorted to greasing the bullets. No fouling, no problems. It worked great.However, that was not standard military practice, and never had been. Cleaning to remove the metal fouling after firing was standard practice.
This is what the Austrialians were doing, as this 1930 article indicates. The only question was whether your Lee Metford barrel or your Lee Enfield Barrel shot greased bullets better.
Chronicle Newspaper, 13 Feb 1930 Adelaide Australia
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/90100747
Rifle Shooting
GREASED BULLETS
Opinion is so divided on the question of the benefits of using greased, bullets that riflemen would be well advised to give the practice a thorough try-out to ascertain if their present method of shooting is giving the best results. This advice applies to those using a lot of lubricant, those using a little, and those who do not use any. There are prominent riflemen who pile the lubricant on the bullet and get good scores; there are others who have been equally as free with the grease and have got very bad scores; and naturally the two parties hold very different opinions on the subject. The greasing of bullets was introduced in an attempt to prevent the nickel of the bullet adhering to the surface of the inside of the barrel when firing was being carried out. The theory that a lubricant would prevent the two metals “sticking” appears quite in order, but this prevention had to be carried out without any loss of the rifle's accuracy. It was here that the trouble occurred as it was found that as soon as the heat of the barrel turned the grease to oil, which worked into the chamber of the barrel, the bullets began to fly high, as is the case when water gets into the chamber. * The riflemen who had scores spoilt in this manner immediately discarded the use of the lubricant, preferring to chance the nickel trouble as the lesser of the two evils. But, seeing that other men used lets of grease and continued to get good scores, the question arose as to whether the state of the rifling of the barrel should not be taken into consideration with the grease question. Men with new Enfield barrels which have sharp lands, bandied the greased bullets better than those with Metford barrels, which have shallow round lands. This implies that worn barrels do not handle greased bullets as well as the new. One good shot recently was having a run of poor scores. His rifle picked up nickel, so he always used greased bullets. He decided to discontinue the use of the grease, and his scores immediately improved several points. Two other big shots had the same experience. It is possible that had they experimented with reduced amounts of lubricant they might have discovered that they could use a certain amount and get good scores, and at the same time keep the nickel down. There can be little doubt that less lubricant could be used with advantage in the summer, owing to it melting more quickly than in the winter. Rifle men should not only experiment with the quantity to be used but also with the kind, there being several different brands in use.
*note: the Lee Enfield action is very flexible and changes in breech friction create a point of impact change]
Last edited:
Mike Irwin
Staff
You can see a picture of an 8x50R cartridge loaded in 1918 here:
http://www.gunauction.com/search/displayitem.cfm?itemnum=8953258
You can see from the condition of the bullet that if unprotected it would rust. Rust could be a big problem as it would effectively increase the diameter of the bullet and could lead to both chambering problems and barrel damage, if not excessive breech pressures.
You can see a VERY badly rusted (battle field reclic, I suspect) here in post 14:
http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=161907
This page, about half way down, gives some information on the various 8x50R cartridges:
http://milpas.cc/rifles/ZFiles/WWI/Machine Guns/Schwarzlose Gun/Schwarzlose Gun.html
The Schwarzlose used the same ammunition as the rifle until about 1915 when it was modified to allow for better feeding in machine guns.
As for the bullet itself, yes, it was a mild steel jacket with a lead core. It was NOT an all-steel bullet. That would be impractical as all get out. It would be far too light and would have pretty bad ballistics (like steel shotshell shot) and it wouldn't have the flexibility needed to compress into the rifling.
The ONLY non-lead monolithic bullet I know of in use by any military at this time that I know of was the famous French Balle D, which was solid lathe turned bronze.
Mild steel jacketed bullets were commonly used in Europe. Nazi Germany loaded them, apparently as a substitute standard, through World War II, and was used in Com-Bloc nations throughout the Cold War.
Mild steel is a lot cheaper than gilding metal or other jacket materials.
Another user of steel jacketed ammo were the British, but for cartridges destined for use on dangerous game. As originally loaded by Rigby, the .416 cartridge used a steel-jacketed bullet up through World War I, and possibly later.
Gilding metal was still in its infancy and early attempts to use it on solids for dangerous game by various manufacturers had been problematic. Bullets would rivet (fold) or even break apart.
The steel-jacketed bullets were FAR more resistant to that.
Regarding the newpaper article, I'm positive that it's talking about sport shooters, NOT soldiers. Yes, sport shooters tended to dip their bullets in some sort of lubricant prior to firing with cupronickel jacketed bullets, but again, this was not a generally convention in military usage.
As for the asphaltum sealant, it's most definitely a moisture seal designed to give the cartridges the longest possible storage life.
Once again, I'm not 100% certain, but I THINK that the United States only moved to asphaltum moisture sealants after the cupro-nickel jacked bullet was dropped from service in the 1920s.
When the cupronickel jacketed bullets were dropped, bullet to case bonding (especially bad with the tinned cases that used to be loaded) ceased to be an issue.
The government either developed or specified the use of asphaltum moisture sealant in military cartridges from that time forward. The asphaltum had the advantage that, under gas pressure, it didn't hold the bullet so tightly that it caused higher than normal chamber pressures.
http://www.gunauction.com/search/displayitem.cfm?itemnum=8953258
You can see from the condition of the bullet that if unprotected it would rust. Rust could be a big problem as it would effectively increase the diameter of the bullet and could lead to both chambering problems and barrel damage, if not excessive breech pressures.
You can see a VERY badly rusted (battle field reclic, I suspect) here in post 14:
http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=161907
This page, about half way down, gives some information on the various 8x50R cartridges:
http://milpas.cc/rifles/ZFiles/WWI/Machine Guns/Schwarzlose Gun/Schwarzlose Gun.html
The Schwarzlose used the same ammunition as the rifle until about 1915 when it was modified to allow for better feeding in machine guns.
As for the bullet itself, yes, it was a mild steel jacket with a lead core. It was NOT an all-steel bullet. That would be impractical as all get out. It would be far too light and would have pretty bad ballistics (like steel shotshell shot) and it wouldn't have the flexibility needed to compress into the rifling.
The ONLY non-lead monolithic bullet I know of in use by any military at this time that I know of was the famous French Balle D, which was solid lathe turned bronze.
Mild steel jacketed bullets were commonly used in Europe. Nazi Germany loaded them, apparently as a substitute standard, through World War II, and was used in Com-Bloc nations throughout the Cold War.
Mild steel is a lot cheaper than gilding metal or other jacket materials.
Another user of steel jacketed ammo were the British, but for cartridges destined for use on dangerous game. As originally loaded by Rigby, the .416 cartridge used a steel-jacketed bullet up through World War I, and possibly later.
Gilding metal was still in its infancy and early attempts to use it on solids for dangerous game by various manufacturers had been problematic. Bullets would rivet (fold) or even break apart.
The steel-jacketed bullets were FAR more resistant to that.
Regarding the newpaper article, I'm positive that it's talking about sport shooters, NOT soldiers. Yes, sport shooters tended to dip their bullets in some sort of lubricant prior to firing with cupronickel jacketed bullets, but again, this was not a generally convention in military usage.
As for the asphaltum sealant, it's most definitely a moisture seal designed to give the cartridges the longest possible storage life.
Once again, I'm not 100% certain, but I THINK that the United States only moved to asphaltum moisture sealants after the cupro-nickel jacked bullet was dropped from service in the 1920s.
When the cupronickel jacketed bullets were dropped, bullet to case bonding (especially bad with the tinned cases that used to be loaded) ceased to be an issue.
The government either developed or specified the use of asphaltum moisture sealant in military cartridges from that time forward. The asphaltum had the advantage that, under gas pressure, it didn't hold the bullet so tightly that it caused higher than normal chamber pressures.