steel vs. alumnium
- Thread starter bullet44
- Start date
Kimber has done extensive testing with their aluminum frames. They use high quality aircraft grade and mill them. They say they see no appreciable difference in wear. Under normal loads, the pistol will probably outlast you. Now as to other manufacturers, I do not know. If you are interested in the weight and endurance and are worried by aluminum, go with the polymer or the new titanium frames. I have both a Kimber ultra elite and a Colt oficer ltwt. and each has several thousand rounds through them and show no abnormal wear and they are both aluminum frames.
Will Beararms
New member
Think about it. If you duck hunt or fish in shallow waters, your boat is made of aluminum. Look at what it takes and it is made of a much lower grade. We shoot shotguns with al receivers thousands of times with no problem. If you are planning to shoot competition, go polymer or steel. If not, don't worry about it IMHO.
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"When guns are outlawed;I will be an outlaw."
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"When guns are outlawed;I will be an outlaw."
Master Blaster
New member
M-16 machine guns and AR-15 civilian legal rifles all have forged aluminum recievers (lowers). These have proved tough and relaible in 3 decades of military service.
But with any product the quality of the material and the maufacturing process is key.
Forged and milled is tougher than cast aluminum.
But with any product the quality of the material and the maufacturing process is key.
Forged and milled is tougher than cast aluminum.
1911Heaven
New member
About the only real negative I've seen with aluminum frames is the tendency for certain types of jacketed hollowpoint designs(Winchester SXT comes to mind)to over time,booger up the feed ramp;softer designs such as Winchester Silver Tip do'nt.Other than that,I think it's a matter of how much weight you are willing to carry.Regards.
Master Blaster
New member
The feed ramp is aluminum on a 1911???
I thought it was part of the steel barrel as on all of my aluminum frame guns????
I would be leary of any gun with an aluminum feed ramp.
Airframes in 767 jets are made out of aluminum alloys imagine the stress they take on every flight.
I thought the feed ramp was a part of the barrel by necessity on any gun which has a moving barrel durring recoil.
[This message has been edited by Master Blaster (edited April 01, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by Master Blaster (edited April 01, 2000).]
I thought it was part of the steel barrel as on all of my aluminum frame guns????
I would be leary of any gun with an aluminum feed ramp.
Airframes in 767 jets are made out of aluminum alloys imagine the stress they take on every flight.
I thought the feed ramp was a part of the barrel by necessity on any gun which has a moving barrel durring recoil.
[This message has been edited by Master Blaster (edited April 01, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by Master Blaster (edited April 01, 2000).]
Master Blaster,
Do you know of any company that makes forged Al alloy frames? I thought that all Al frames/ parts were cast, whereas steel can be found in either. Maybe the source I got my info from was wrong?
That said, the type of coating/plating has much to do with surface wear. Ie. TiN, hard anodizing, and hard chrome will out wear an epoxy type coating. The thing that I am curious about is whether or not the above platings decrease the chances of stress fractures over one another. Does anyone have any reliable information on this? The only one that I know of who has commented on this was Chuck Taylor. He claims that after carrying and shooting tens of thousands of rounds, (I'd have to look up the quote to get actual count/years), through his lightweight commander plated w/ Metalife SS Chromium finish, it still shows very little wear and performs better than any other plating he's ever tried. I would guess that this would apply to TiN as well, but am concerned about the high temps that are used during application. Maybe it would take out temper/heat treat of the Al alloy. Any metalurgist out there who can comment on this from experience?
robert
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"But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip; and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." -Jesus Christ (Luke 22:36, see John 3:15-18)
Do you know of any company that makes forged Al alloy frames? I thought that all Al frames/ parts were cast, whereas steel can be found in either. Maybe the source I got my info from was wrong?
That said, the type of coating/plating has much to do with surface wear. Ie. TiN, hard anodizing, and hard chrome will out wear an epoxy type coating. The thing that I am curious about is whether or not the above platings decrease the chances of stress fractures over one another. Does anyone have any reliable information on this? The only one that I know of who has commented on this was Chuck Taylor. He claims that after carrying and shooting tens of thousands of rounds, (I'd have to look up the quote to get actual count/years), through his lightweight commander plated w/ Metalife SS Chromium finish, it still shows very little wear and performs better than any other plating he's ever tried. I would guess that this would apply to TiN as well, but am concerned about the high temps that are used during application. Maybe it would take out temper/heat treat of the Al alloy. Any metalurgist out there who can comment on this from experience?
robert
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"But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip; and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." -Jesus Christ (Luke 22:36, see John 3:15-18)
Master Blaster,
The suject of scoring of feedramps has "come-up" on Gunspot at least once. I recently ordered a 1911 with al frame from Brian Bilby. I noticed that he and Richard Heinie had previously mentioned the problem of certain HP such as Gold Dots scoring the feed ramp. Caspian is putting an insert in their al frames to keep that from happening.However, I understand that it is very small and Brian only uses a ramped barrel on al frames. Most pistol smiths don't like ramped barrels, but it seems to be the best solution at present. I realize that the LW Commander has been around a long time and has held up well. I wonder if the newer HP's change the situation. I don't know how many you would have to fire to score the feed ramp. I also was told that Springfield uses a ramped barrel in all their guns below the 5". Jerry
The suject of scoring of feedramps has "come-up" on Gunspot at least once. I recently ordered a 1911 with al frame from Brian Bilby. I noticed that he and Richard Heinie had previously mentioned the problem of certain HP such as Gold Dots scoring the feed ramp. Caspian is putting an insert in their al frames to keep that from happening.However, I understand that it is very small and Brian only uses a ramped barrel on al frames. Most pistol smiths don't like ramped barrels, but it seems to be the best solution at present. I realize that the LW Commander has been around a long time and has held up well. I wonder if the newer HP's change the situation. I don't know how many you would have to fire to score the feed ramp. I also was told that Springfield uses a ramped barrel in all their guns below the 5". Jerry
Here is some good information on ramped barrels. Jerry http://www.1911forum.com/ubb/Forum8/HTML/000012.html
Master Blaster
New member
Forging is subjecting the metal to sudden compression which makes it denser. As I understand it that can be done to any ductile metal to make it denser or tougher.
I think you can even do it to a casting.
Taurus forges the Titanium frames for the Titanium revolver line.
I am not a metalurgist though.
Forged Aluminum receivers are used in Bushmaster, Colt, Armalite AR-15 or M-16.
They hold up very well for the most part.
WWW.AR15.com
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Master Blaster
I think you can even do it to a casting.
Taurus forges the Titanium frames for the Titanium revolver line.
I am not a metalurgist though.
Forged Aluminum receivers are used in Bushmaster, Colt, Armalite AR-15 or M-16.
They hold up very well for the most part.
WWW.AR15.com
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Master Blaster
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by EQUALIZER:
Master Blaster,
Do you know of any company that makes forged Al alloy frames? I thought that all Al frames/ parts were cast, whereas steel can be found in either. Maybe the source I got my info from was wrong?
That said, the type of coating/plating has much to do with surface wear. Ie. TiN, hard anodizing, and hard chrome will out wear an epoxy type coating. The thing that I am curious about is whether or not the above platings decrease the chances of stress fractures over one another. Does anyone have any reliable information on this? The only one that I know of who has commented on this was Chuck Taylor. He claims that after carrying and shooting tens of thousands of rounds, (I'd have to look up the quote to get actual count/years), through his lightweight commander plated w/ Metalife SS Chromium finish, it still shows very little wear and performs better than any other plating he's ever tried. I would guess that this would apply to TiN as well, but am concerned about the high temps that are used during application. Maybe it would take out temper/heat treat of the Al alloy. Any metalurgist out there who can comment on this from experience?
robert
[/quote]
I don't have direct experience, but TiN coatings require high temperatures (400C+) which will overage and soften a heat treated aluminum frame. In fact, some treatments may completely solution treat the metal. Aluminum alloys are primarily hardened by the formation of finely distributed precipitates; if these precipitates become too coarse the metal will soften; typically the alloy must be heated to 560C or so to completely dissolve the precipitates if this happens, followed by the correct heat treatment to re-harden the material by re-precipitating a fine distribution of precipitates. This can be complicated, and you would have to know the exact alloy used to do it properly.
For this reason, I would not consider TiN for an aluminum part or frame. I'd be somewhat surprised if any company offers this treatment for aluminum, knowing what will happen to the temper or heat treatment of the metal.
It is possible that a plated hard chrome surface could increase the risk of frame cracking; this risk will be reduced if sharp edges and burrs are removed prior to plating.
Also, there are various factors to be considered in wear resistance, surface hardness and lubricity are the most important, but do not capture all the factors involved. Hard chrome and TiN coatings will improve wear resistance, but so will phenolic/MoS2 coatings like Gunkote or Metcol III. Phenolic/MoS2 coatings prolong the operating lifetimes of pistons in motorcycle applications, and dratically improve lifetime in corrosive environments. They should also be cheaper to apply, and are less likely to chip off in the area of a dent. I would be comfortable applying these coatings to a firearm I owned, though I would also be comfortable with hard chrome or TiN.
Hard chrome is probably the best choice to protect a feed ramp, although I would stay away from a handgun with an aluminum feed ramp unless I knew that similar guns had performed well for tens of thousands of the rounds I intended to use.
Cold deformation or forging will harden any metal that strain hardens, at some cost to ductility (some metals, like magnesium, do not harden much or at all with strain). An alloy is chosed for an application with an eye towards the the cost of fabrication. There is generally some tradeoff between properties and cost, but it is not true that a part milled from a forged blank will always be stronger than a cast part. This will generally be true for the exact same alloy, but forgings and castings are made from different alloys that are tailored to the fabrication process. One advantage of forging is that it will close any porosity left from casting, although a properly designed casting should show little or no macroscopic porosity.
-Nick19 (a metallurgist)
Master Blaster,
Do you know of any company that makes forged Al alloy frames? I thought that all Al frames/ parts were cast, whereas steel can be found in either. Maybe the source I got my info from was wrong?
That said, the type of coating/plating has much to do with surface wear. Ie. TiN, hard anodizing, and hard chrome will out wear an epoxy type coating. The thing that I am curious about is whether or not the above platings decrease the chances of stress fractures over one another. Does anyone have any reliable information on this? The only one that I know of who has commented on this was Chuck Taylor. He claims that after carrying and shooting tens of thousands of rounds, (I'd have to look up the quote to get actual count/years), through his lightweight commander plated w/ Metalife SS Chromium finish, it still shows very little wear and performs better than any other plating he's ever tried. I would guess that this would apply to TiN as well, but am concerned about the high temps that are used during application. Maybe it would take out temper/heat treat of the Al alloy. Any metalurgist out there who can comment on this from experience?
robert
[/quote]
I don't have direct experience, but TiN coatings require high temperatures (400C+) which will overage and soften a heat treated aluminum frame. In fact, some treatments may completely solution treat the metal. Aluminum alloys are primarily hardened by the formation of finely distributed precipitates; if these precipitates become too coarse the metal will soften; typically the alloy must be heated to 560C or so to completely dissolve the precipitates if this happens, followed by the correct heat treatment to re-harden the material by re-precipitating a fine distribution of precipitates. This can be complicated, and you would have to know the exact alloy used to do it properly.
For this reason, I would not consider TiN for an aluminum part or frame. I'd be somewhat surprised if any company offers this treatment for aluminum, knowing what will happen to the temper or heat treatment of the metal.
It is possible that a plated hard chrome surface could increase the risk of frame cracking; this risk will be reduced if sharp edges and burrs are removed prior to plating.
Also, there are various factors to be considered in wear resistance, surface hardness and lubricity are the most important, but do not capture all the factors involved. Hard chrome and TiN coatings will improve wear resistance, but so will phenolic/MoS2 coatings like Gunkote or Metcol III. Phenolic/MoS2 coatings prolong the operating lifetimes of pistons in motorcycle applications, and dratically improve lifetime in corrosive environments. They should also be cheaper to apply, and are less likely to chip off in the area of a dent. I would be comfortable applying these coatings to a firearm I owned, though I would also be comfortable with hard chrome or TiN.
Hard chrome is probably the best choice to protect a feed ramp, although I would stay away from a handgun with an aluminum feed ramp unless I knew that similar guns had performed well for tens of thousands of the rounds I intended to use.
Cold deformation or forging will harden any metal that strain hardens, at some cost to ductility (some metals, like magnesium, do not harden much or at all with strain). An alloy is chosed for an application with an eye towards the the cost of fabrication. There is generally some tradeoff between properties and cost, but it is not true that a part milled from a forged blank will always be stronger than a cast part. This will generally be true for the exact same alloy, but forgings and castings are made from different alloys that are tailored to the fabrication process. One advantage of forging is that it will close any porosity left from casting, although a properly designed casting should show little or no macroscopic porosity.
-Nick19 (a metallurgist)
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Moe:
Nick19.
Are you serious! Can the aftermarket chrome plating that my hp-35 and my wife's 1911 have could have weakened the frame?
They were done by an outfit in NY before I bought them. Would you say that the life of the guns are probably reduced?
Man I'm having a cow.
Moe[/quote]
This isn't really a problem for thick parts which experience relatively low stresses, but there are several reasons that chrome plating can promote cracking. One is that the plating process itself can introduce hyrogen (hydrogen embrittles many metals), another is that you can introduce residual tensile stresses. Also, where you have a hard and relatively brittle coating over a thin section of substrate (at a sharp corner or burr), you are very likely to form a crack in the substrate if the coating cracks.
Whether or not this reduces the life of your frame depends on several factors, but it shouldn't be a problem if the sharp corners of your frame were 'broken' or rounded prior to plating, and if the part was properly baked after plating (which will remove the hydrogen and relieve internal stresses). I believe that this isn't necessary with lower strength steels, brass or copper, but I'm not certain which alloys don't need it. There shouldn't be any really sharp corners, because the plater will have prepared the surface for plating by bead or sand blasting and acid etching to get good adherance of the coating. The concern is whether or not any small cracks that may form will grow as the frame is flexed by firing; I'm not sure how likely this is, and would ask someone with some experience. I believe that hard chrome plating of frames has been done for many years without problems, but I don't have direct experience with this.
Nick19.
Are you serious! Can the aftermarket chrome plating that my hp-35 and my wife's 1911 have could have weakened the frame?
They were done by an outfit in NY before I bought them. Would you say that the life of the guns are probably reduced?
Man I'm having a cow.
Moe[/quote]
This isn't really a problem for thick parts which experience relatively low stresses, but there are several reasons that chrome plating can promote cracking. One is that the plating process itself can introduce hyrogen (hydrogen embrittles many metals), another is that you can introduce residual tensile stresses. Also, where you have a hard and relatively brittle coating over a thin section of substrate (at a sharp corner or burr), you are very likely to form a crack in the substrate if the coating cracks.
Whether or not this reduces the life of your frame depends on several factors, but it shouldn't be a problem if the sharp corners of your frame were 'broken' or rounded prior to plating, and if the part was properly baked after plating (which will remove the hydrogen and relieve internal stresses). I believe that this isn't necessary with lower strength steels, brass or copper, but I'm not certain which alloys don't need it. There shouldn't be any really sharp corners, because the plater will have prepared the surface for plating by bead or sand blasting and acid etching to get good adherance of the coating. The concern is whether or not any small cracks that may form will grow as the frame is flexed by firing; I'm not sure how likely this is, and would ask someone with some experience. I believe that hard chrome plating of frames has been done for many years without problems, but I don't have direct experience with this.