Steel-cased milsurp, out of a .308. Problem?

P

Pond James Pond

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I recently wrote a thread relating to opening up and homogenising some milsurp cartridges with a view to making them more consistent and hopefully more accurate through my CZ.

I have actually come away with a selection of military grade ammo. Some true milsurp, some mil-grade. Some I just have enough to shoot off a group or too to see how they perform in standard trim, but two I have enough to do some accuracy tests, including pulling them down for charge, neck tension and OAL consistency.

All the true milsurp (manky-looking brass, crimped primers, probably berdan, card-board boxes with functional print) attracts a magnet, so under the copper surface there appears to be a steel jacket. It seems to be a jacket all the way around the core, not just the tip as I moved the small magnet over the bullet and neck, attraction did not waver!!

So my question, before I start pulling stuff apart, is:

Will .30 cal bi-metal, copper/steel cased bullets do more harm to my barrel than regular FMJ at standard velocities for 168-170gr bullets? (guesstimate being around 2600-2750fps)

If my experiment is fruitful, these could become my regular range ammo, giving me trigger time without the cost. I would still handload my best cartidges, but could greatly reduce my costs overall and/or increase my shooting. However, that would be a false economy if I found that my barrel-life dropped by 30%!
 
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Steel jacketed bullets should be somewhat harder on the lands than a copper jacketed bullet. How much, I don't know. But if you are concerned how about greasing your bullets?



A number of early service rifle cartridges were issued with greased bullets, the Austrian example was definately due to a steel jacket. I am certain the grease increased barrel life by decreasing friction between the bullet and barrel. I found a listing of early greased service cartridges in Gun Shot Injuries Col Louis La Garde 1916 edition (print version 1991 Lancer Militaria) page 32

Table 1 Rifles now in use: Brief Comparison of Data on their Construction, Material and Qualities (Translated by V.J. from the “Tabelle 2” appended to “Die Entwicklung der Handfeuerwaffen von G. Wrzodek Leipzig 1908)

According to this 1908 table, the Austrians are using a steel sheet bullet jacket (greased), the Italians with their M1891 rifle were using a cupro-nickel (greased) jacket, Russia was using a cupro-nickel (greased) bullet in their Mosin-Nagant, and the Swiss were using a bullet which had a steel coating, with paper patching (oiled). A web search shows that the Swiss were using a paper patched bullet where the paper was saturated with oil but later ammunition was issued where the bullet had a grease ring.



 
The mild (soft) steel jacketed bullets used in most European and some U.S. military ammo will wear out a barrel faster than those with gilding metal (copper alloy) jackets, but it takes several thousand rounds to make a difference. In the case of most milsurp rifles, the barrel will be shot out anyway before the jacket material makes a difference.

FWIW, most steel jacket bullets are plated (with cupro-nickel in Europe and gilding metal in the U.S.) to keep the steel from rusting, so steel jackets are not always obvious. Usually a magnet is needed to tell that they are steel.

Jim
 
No. The steel is much softer than barrel steel.
Greased bullets proved to do nothing but increase pressures.
"...trigger time without the cost..." That's done through reloading. Assuming that's a possibility where you are.
 
That's done through reloading. Assuming that's a possibility where you are.
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I reload. It is still very expensive to assemble handloads.

Over here, these milsurp cartridges cost less than an Amax bullet, and they are the cheapest of the bullets I shoot.

So, if I can make them work for me then, yes, it is far cheaper trigger time.
 
The tests done by Luckygunner showed about half the barrel life with steel jacketed bullets as with copper jacketed.
These tests were done with AR .223 carbines. The rate of fire was rapid and accuracy was modest to start with. So does it apply to careful shooting with a .308? Probably to some extent.

http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/brass-vs-steel-cased-ammo/

Do not be confused; the steel CASED ammo also had steel JACKETED bullets, which is what the bore is seeing.
 
No steel jackets.

Bi-Metal, maybe. Copper over a steel jacket.

Only steel jacket I've heard of were late WWII s.S. Patrone that the Germans made as a last ditch effort.

Of course, I could possibly see it wearing out a bore faster than pure Copper.

And grease on Gewherpatronen 11 7.5mm has nothing to do with the bullets. They're not pure steel jacketed, though have a cupro nickel coating.. It was to aid in moisture protection and extraction. (in the case of machine guns.)
 
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The "bi-metal" bullets have just enough copper over the steel for corrosion protection and a bit of lubrication. It didn't seem to do the rifles at Luckygunner a whale of a lot of good.

I wonder how anybody gets away with cupronickel as a jacket material or plating over steel these days. That was nothing but trouble in the early days of the .30-06 when they found that while cupronickel was OK at Krag velocity, it left nasty "hard metal fouling" at higher speed. That was the main point of greased bullets that I recall.
 
Gewherpatronen 11 was jacketed with a light cupro nickel jacket on the outside, a thicker steel jacket inside of that, and a light cupro nickel jacket inside of that which jacketed the lead core. It leaves very little to no fouling at 2,560 feet per second. The Swiss had these fine rifles down to a science.

Do you have any scientific tests as to this bi metal vs pure copper jacket stuff? There is bound to be bias in LG's tests, as they are a business, and bi metal jacketed bullets tend to cost less than those that are not.
 
Yes, I know, and I would like to know how they made it work.
Maybe they didn't shoot long strings and get the barrels hot.
I once took an author to task for arming his troops with cupronickel jacketed bullets. He defended them on the basis of RWS hunting bullets.

The Luckygunner report does indeed point out that if you want cheap blasting ammo, the lower price for steel balanced out the cost of a new barrel or even two over 10000 rounds of rapid fire.

I don't care much; my rifle ammo is loaded carefully with name brand components and shot one at a time at a distant target. I do not have the OP's problem.
 
Well, this tells me that I probably want to avoid the copper-steel jacket stuff. I'll shoot what I have and perhaps tweak some of them just to see what more they can do.
 
Gewherpatronen 11 was jacketed with a light cupro nickel jacket on the outside, a thicker steel jacket inside of that, and a light cupro nickel jacket inside of that which jacketed the lead core. It leaves very little to no fouling at 2,560 feet per second. The Swiss had these fine rifles down to a science.
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Swissrifles.com has comments on the grease ring. Some claim it improved accuracy and when it was discontinued, target shooters bought greasing kits to put the grease back on the bullet. I do know, from period texts, the Austrian steel bullet was greased to reduce bore wear. I don't have an original Austrian greased round, nor have I found a picture of the round with grease on the bullet, but contemporary accounts state the steel jacketed bullet was made to penetrate the armor found in front of field artillery pieces. So the steel jacket had to be fairly thick.

I have also found period accounts where greased bullets were used to cut down on cupro-nickel jacket fouling. Not only were the Americans doing this, but so were the British. I expect everyone was doing it with those old bullets, but finding confirmation in contemporary print is something else. American writers of the period claimed that greased bullets increased barrel life, by which I assume, meant reduced rifling wear.

The whole idea that greased bullets increase pressures is a coverup by the American Army. They had built over 1,000,000 structurally defective rifles. Whenever an issue rifle blew up, firing issue ammunition, the Army would not admit that either the rifle or the ammunition was defective, instead, the US Army blame shifted catastrophic failures on the grease used to lubricate bullets. Since the authority of the US Army Ordnance Department is next to God (in the view of some) whatever pronouncements the Ordnance Department makes is viewed as Holy Script, inspired and infallible. One should always be skeptical of authority, particularly Devine authority. Rather, accept nothing on authority, trust only the evidence gathered in the physical world.
 
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