does anyone know where i can find statistics on actual shootings with the .357 sig??? also everyone has been comparing the .357sig to the .40s&w but how does it stack up against the .45acp? i carry a h&k usp .45 as a duty weapon,and our office has just approved the .357sig, i am trying to find emperical evidence to the .357's ability and if i can hold a candle to the .45acp.
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statistics on .357 sig shooting/.357sig vs. .45acp
- Thread starter chris k
- Start date
I think the .357sig out guns just about any other defense caliber. Its perfect for duty carry since it works like a .357mag in that it does great against all sorts of bariers like glass and cars. the .45 doesn't perform half as good. i think the .45 is good for home defense since you won't have to shoot thru stuff but for duty when anything could happen the .357sig is king. one problem would be that they don't make a USP in .357sig just the compact. this might have changes since i heard this but i don't think so. many guns are now available in .357sig and the best of them IMO are the Glock 31 and Sig 226 and 229.
TEXAS LAWMAN
New member
Apparently there have been too few documented shootings w/.357SIG to generate a valid statistical comparison with other calibers. HOWEVER, since the .357SIG duplicates the .357Mag (bullet of same size and similar in construction traveling at the same speed), it would stand to reason that the SIG would be as effective as the .357MAG -- the latter is oftentimes said to be the most effective one-shot stopper.
One's "academic" at this point, the .357 Sig.
One's well proven, the .45acp- since 1911.
The deciding factor with hand gun ammo, assuming you are hitting a vital area of the human body, is the displacement of damage done by the bullet. Larger is better. No? Please explain why not.
Also, please cite penetration concerns for 230 grain .45 acps.
Erik
One's well proven, the .45acp- since 1911.
The deciding factor with hand gun ammo, assuming you are hitting a vital area of the human body, is the displacement of damage done by the bullet. Larger is better. No? Please explain why not.
Also, please cite penetration concerns for 230 grain .45 acps.
Erik
357 Mag has proven in actual results to "out-gun" the 45ACP.
The SIG duplicates (or exceeds) the Mag ballistics.
I carry a 9 (Witness) or 45 (1911).
Guess any gun is better than none, and a well-aimed minor hole is better than any big-bore miss.
PS shoot through car glass or door with both for your own results and tell us what you think......
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"All my ammo is factory ammo"
The SIG duplicates (or exceeds) the Mag ballistics.
I carry a 9 (Witness) or 45 (1911).
Guess any gun is better than none, and a well-aimed minor hole is better than any big-bore miss.
PS shoot through car glass or door with both for your own results and tell us what you think......
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"All my ammo is factory ammo"
Between 1350 fps (31/2" to 4" barrel) 1400 to 1500 fps in 41/2" to 5" barreled guns. Exceptional hollow point reliability of expansion. Recoil in a Glock 32 is about the same as my Wifes G19 with plus p ammo. In My pre ban 13 rd mags I can load 14 rds of 357 sig 125 gn gold dot HP, plus one in the pipe and I am armed with 15 rds of high velocity combat ordinance. 357 sig is proven to be more accurate then all other pistol cartridges out their. Bottle necks feed better period. Just by a conversion barrel for any of the following .40 guns, Glock, sig, high power,
Is the .357sig the ultimate fight stopper?
Who knows, it's too early to tell. We've heard that before. Anybody remember the 41mag or the 10mm ?
It supposedly duplicates the .357mag on balistics so it should be as effective, emphasis on the *should*. The .45acp is no weak sister. If I was paying out of my own pocket I certainly wouldn't spend money on a .357sig if I already had a .45acp.
The only concrete advantage that I can see concerning the .357sig is that your gun can shoot the .40S&W, thereby adding versatility.
Who knows, it's too early to tell. We've heard that before. Anybody remember the 41mag or the 10mm ?
It supposedly duplicates the .357mag on balistics so it should be as effective, emphasis on the *should*. The .45acp is no weak sister. If I was paying out of my own pocket I certainly wouldn't spend money on a .357sig if I already had a .45acp.
The only concrete advantage that I can see concerning the .357sig is that your gun can shoot the .40S&W, thereby adding versatility.
The .357 Sig, according to all tests so far, exceeds the .45acp.
Proponents of the ":slow and heavy" camp (which is slowly becoming extinct due to constant proof that fast and light works) will argue this point, but the hi-energy, hi-velocity, deep penetrating .357 Sig is all around a better cartridge, especially for cops.
Texas DPS was not happy with the .45 and they are very happy with the .357 Sig. Texas DPS gives many accounts of the .45 failing them, and that is why they went to the .357 Sig, which is giving them much better results.
They tell an account of one shooting involving a new trooper with a .357 Sig and an older trooper with a .45. They were shooting at a man in a truck cab who was shooting at them. The .45 could not penetrate the truck cab and was worthless is stopping the bad guy. The .357 Sig went through and killed the perp, and the round is credited with saving their lives. Those were their exact words, so I am not hyping up the story.
So far there have been several shootings with the departments using the .357 Sig and they claim that it has that "lightning shock" effect when it hits the bad guy. They crumple down instantly. This is no surprise since the round is designed after the legendary .357 Magnum, but it actually more powerful from the standard carry platform. Of course the .357 Sig is going to work, and so far it has a stellar record on the street for putting bad guys down quick, according to the agencies using it.
I would not want to get hit with any of them, but the .357 sig is a superior round and I predict we will see it become very well respected in coming years. There is no more powerful mutant killer out of a compact gun than the .357 Sig. If you can cary a bigger gun, then the 10mm might be a good choice. There is no reason that the 10mm did not catch on more except that people are wimps and the recoil is too much. One of the fast and light 10mm loads like a 155gr load will deliver twice the energy and devestation of a .45, and give good barrier penetration without overpenetrating flesh.
The 125gr .357 Sig moves out of my Glock 32 at just under 1450fps, having a very high likelyhood of full expansion due to the extreme velocities, meanwhile penetrating a perfect amount of depth (about 15" of gelatin) and delivering up toward 600 foot pounds of energy (which, according to real cops shooting real people, seems to make people "feel" the hit more and drop faster like getting kicked in the gut, which is what they call the "lightning strike" effect of the .357 Mag. Officers say that when they hit people with this high energy round, that the person reacts like they were hit with a "shock", rather than low energy rounds that tend to allow pumped up bad guys to keep going and not realize they have been hit until they bleed out. No doubt blood loss is what ultimately stops people, but real shootings tell us that high energy round have a more dramatic effect like getting a kick in the guts that tends to make people crumple over and cease their actions)
The .40 is also an excellent round, and I tend to use the .40 around the house where I want less barrier penetration. But, when I go out, I use the .357 Sig because it is a better overall package, especially for cops who often need to shoot through barriers but still get outstanding performance in flesh.
[This message has been edited by Red Bull (edited February 26, 2000).]
Proponents of the ":slow and heavy" camp (which is slowly becoming extinct due to constant proof that fast and light works) will argue this point, but the hi-energy, hi-velocity, deep penetrating .357 Sig is all around a better cartridge, especially for cops.
Texas DPS was not happy with the .45 and they are very happy with the .357 Sig. Texas DPS gives many accounts of the .45 failing them, and that is why they went to the .357 Sig, which is giving them much better results.
They tell an account of one shooting involving a new trooper with a .357 Sig and an older trooper with a .45. They were shooting at a man in a truck cab who was shooting at them. The .45 could not penetrate the truck cab and was worthless is stopping the bad guy. The .357 Sig went through and killed the perp, and the round is credited with saving their lives. Those were their exact words, so I am not hyping up the story.
So far there have been several shootings with the departments using the .357 Sig and they claim that it has that "lightning shock" effect when it hits the bad guy. They crumple down instantly. This is no surprise since the round is designed after the legendary .357 Magnum, but it actually more powerful from the standard carry platform. Of course the .357 Sig is going to work, and so far it has a stellar record on the street for putting bad guys down quick, according to the agencies using it.
I would not want to get hit with any of them, but the .357 sig is a superior round and I predict we will see it become very well respected in coming years. There is no more powerful mutant killer out of a compact gun than the .357 Sig. If you can cary a bigger gun, then the 10mm might be a good choice. There is no reason that the 10mm did not catch on more except that people are wimps and the recoil is too much. One of the fast and light 10mm loads like a 155gr load will deliver twice the energy and devestation of a .45, and give good barrier penetration without overpenetrating flesh.
The 125gr .357 Sig moves out of my Glock 32 at just under 1450fps, having a very high likelyhood of full expansion due to the extreme velocities, meanwhile penetrating a perfect amount of depth (about 15" of gelatin) and delivering up toward 600 foot pounds of energy (which, according to real cops shooting real people, seems to make people "feel" the hit more and drop faster like getting kicked in the gut, which is what they call the "lightning strike" effect of the .357 Mag. Officers say that when they hit people with this high energy round, that the person reacts like they were hit with a "shock", rather than low energy rounds that tend to allow pumped up bad guys to keep going and not realize they have been hit until they bleed out. No doubt blood loss is what ultimately stops people, but real shootings tell us that high energy round have a more dramatic effect like getting a kick in the guts that tends to make people crumple over and cease their actions)
The .40 is also an excellent round, and I tend to use the .40 around the house where I want less barrier penetration. But, when I go out, I use the .357 Sig because it is a better overall package, especially for cops who often need to shoot through barriers but still get outstanding performance in flesh.
[This message has been edited by Red Bull (edited February 26, 2000).]
If you are a cop and looking to get the .357 Sig, I encourage you to get an copy of Handguns magazine, Oct 1999. There is a very well detailed write up of why the Texas DPS went to the .357 Sig, and I think it makes a very good argument why the .357 sig is a great choice for cops, especially highway patrol.
There's an article in the April issue of Handguns by Ed Sanow on the top ten rounds for stopping power. Here's the list from best to worst. The best was 97% and the worst 90% one shot stops.
40 cal 155 gr Hydra-Shok
357 mag 125 gr JHP
45 ACP 230 gr Hydra-Shok
45 ACP 185 gr Golden Sabre +P
9 mm 115 gr JHP +P+
40 cal 135 gr Triton
44 mag 210 gr Silvertip
357 Sig 125 gr Triton
41 mag 175 gr Silvertip
40 cal 180 gr Hydra-Shok
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Mark
40 cal 155 gr Hydra-Shok
357 mag 125 gr JHP
45 ACP 230 gr Hydra-Shok
45 ACP 185 gr Golden Sabre +P
9 mm 115 gr JHP +P+
40 cal 135 gr Triton
44 mag 210 gr Silvertip
357 Sig 125 gr Triton
41 mag 175 gr Silvertip
40 cal 180 gr Hydra-Shok
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Mark
i appreciate the responses..(especially red bull) i will check out those articles..i have read one report from texas dps about one of their first .357sig shootings and it is why i'm interested in the round to begin with. for a little more background my agency does not authorize the carry of .40s&w and just recently decided to authorize the .357sig, however in the .45 we don't carry the 230 grain hydra-shok. last year we switched to the 180 grain +p hydra-shok. we recently had a shooting where a corporal that i know stopped the bad guy (who had already put 4 rounds in the cpl's car) with one shot thru the windshield and into the badguy from the side and he died within 4 ft of the door of the car. we have a pretty good record with our .45's but i'm interested in the .357sig because of it's so far impressive record. again thank you all for the responses.
I've fired the .357Sig round in the Sig P229, P226, and P239. I don't think it's punishing at all and if you can handle a .40 or .45 it should be a piece of cake. I didn't find the noise or flash to be a big deal at all.
As far as the Marshall/Sanow data goes, well I don't know. I think that if you have good shot placement that's the most important thing and wether or not you have a .22, 9mm, .45 I'd just be glad to have a gun to use on the perp. I don't know if a 97% one-shot stop is all that better than a 90% one-shot stop except on paper.
It's been a long time since I've done statistics of any sort, but I have a problem with them saying that .40 S&W Federal 155gr Hydrashok is a "better" stopper than a .45; from a statistical point-of-view. The best .40 cal round stopped 54 of 56 with a 96% stop rate. The top .45 round stopped 102 of 107 with a 95% stop rate. The sample size isn't the same for both rounds so how can such inferences be made? The .45 data had 51 more shots fired than the .40 data. If both the .40 and the .45 were fired the same number of times, it's plausible that the .40 could come out with fewer stops.
Then there are other things to consider such as size, weight, clothing, drug-state of the shot perps. If a 300 lb perp was on PCP and was shot with a 9mm once, that might not be the same as a 100 lb perp getting shot with the same bullet or a different bullet. So, I look at the data as interesting, but I wouldn't base everything off it. I think that the Texas DPS had a more scientific approach to selecting the .357Sig as they set up their own tests and criteria.
I guess it comes down to personal preference. Common rounds like 9mm and .45 are usually cheaper and easier to find compared to the .357Sig round; that is, until the latter gets more popular. Just some thoughts.
As far as the Marshall/Sanow data goes, well I don't know. I think that if you have good shot placement that's the most important thing and wether or not you have a .22, 9mm, .45 I'd just be glad to have a gun to use on the perp. I don't know if a 97% one-shot stop is all that better than a 90% one-shot stop except on paper.
It's been a long time since I've done statistics of any sort, but I have a problem with them saying that .40 S&W Federal 155gr Hydrashok is a "better" stopper than a .45; from a statistical point-of-view. The best .40 cal round stopped 54 of 56 with a 96% stop rate. The top .45 round stopped 102 of 107 with a 95% stop rate. The sample size isn't the same for both rounds so how can such inferences be made? The .45 data had 51 more shots fired than the .40 data. If both the .40 and the .45 were fired the same number of times, it's plausible that the .40 could come out with fewer stops.
Then there are other things to consider such as size, weight, clothing, drug-state of the shot perps. If a 300 lb perp was on PCP and was shot with a 9mm once, that might not be the same as a 100 lb perp getting shot with the same bullet or a different bullet. So, I look at the data as interesting, but I wouldn't base everything off it. I think that the Texas DPS had a more scientific approach to selecting the .357Sig as they set up their own tests and criteria.
I guess it comes down to personal preference. Common rounds like 9mm and .45 are usually cheaper and easier to find compared to the .357Sig round; that is, until the latter gets more popular. Just some thoughts.
My ole reloading partner had a ad in his ole farmhouse......this house is old and the wall the 230gr hydrashock went through is only thin wood, the round went 20 more feet and punched through his blazer(small size) door on the outside but did not penetrate to the interior of the car........fubsy.
CassandraComplex
New member
People say that the muzzle blast (meaning the sound) is a loud "crack", but the flash is nonexistent in premium defense loads.
Patrick Graham
Moderator
357 Sig is one hot little round for such a small case.
The fact that it's hard hitting is just one of the things going for it. It's case design is suppose to make it a 100% reliable feeder.
The only draw back I can see with the 357 sig would be it's use in smaller guns. I converted my Glock 27 to 357 sig, it's a real hot rod now. The problem is the recovery time to get a second shot off. The recoil and blast in the small gun pushes the envelope of controllability.
I think 357 Sig would be at it's best out of larger frame autos, like a 1911, Beretta, or a bigger Glock. If the gun was "ported" it would be even better.
The fact that it's hard hitting is just one of the things going for it. It's case design is suppose to make it a 100% reliable feeder.
The only draw back I can see with the 357 sig would be it's use in smaller guns. I converted my Glock 27 to 357 sig, it's a real hot rod now. The problem is the recovery time to get a second shot off. The recoil and blast in the small gun pushes the envelope of controllability.
I think 357 Sig would be at it's best out of larger frame autos, like a 1911, Beretta, or a bigger Glock. If the gun was "ported" it would be even better.