Standing Army...Do We Still Need One?

Terry

New member
I've been thinking about this topic for a while now and thought it might be an interesting topic of conversation.

It appears to me that our current "army" is not being used for the purpose is was established. It is not being use to protect America, but is instead being used to further our government's political goals.
The peace keeping missions and police actions have done nothing to keep American's safer, probably just the opposite (e.g., the massacre of American tourists in Africa). Is it time for the US to stop being the world's policeman?

Can't the National Guards/Reserves provide the protection our country needs?

Wouldn't the arming of US citizens, ala Switzerland and Isreal, give other countries pause if they had thoughts of conquest (hell, why fight us when you can buy us)? It seems to have worked recently in Afganistan and Somolia.

Wouldn't the billions of dollars being spent on the current military be of better use if it reduced everyones taxes and went into our pockets (we could buy more guns)?

What are your thoughts?


------------------
 
Yo, Terry! Excellent questions--gonna have to think about it some.

For some background/context, a couple of points: In 1980, at a Democratic Party precinct convention near the University of Texas, the mostly-liberal kids were quite exercised against the US being the world's policeman. Major issue; vehement in their opinions. This group would now, generally, be around 40 years old...Are they still voting the same as 1980? Damfino...

I note that since the late 1960s, our foreign policies have certainly resulted in increasing numbers of groups targeting US citizens for all manner of mayhem. Should we reconsider some of our policies and actions?

I have read that Japan considered an invasion of the northern Pacific coast of the US, back in WW II. A major item in the decision not to invade was the expectation that not only would regular troops be moved to the area, but that initial "surprise" invasion efforts would be met by numerous armed civilians who would travel independently to the battle area.

OTOH, there is such a great lag-time in resurrecting a moth-balled blue-water navy, or gearing up a system capable of moving large numbers of troops overseas to some quite rational/logical point of need.

I guess it would have to derive from a debate we've not yet really seen: What parts of the world justify force-capabilities to enable certain foreign-affairs policies? And how much force, in what sort of time frame? I guess you work backwards from those decisions...

Certainly no knee-jerk opinions are helpful.

Regards, Art
 
It really depends on our objectives. As far as a standing navy, I have never read of any objections by the founding fathers. Rather hard to intimidate the citizenry away from the coast with a navy. They hadn't seen Tomahawks either. Given the shifting, grandiose objectives of the government we need a larger standing military.

If our objective is the defense of the US-we need a standing military-unless we don't want to fight until the foreign army is on our soil. I prefer to fight on their soil.

What we really need is political leaders with some conception of strategy and the true capabilities of our military power. Take Desert Storm for example. We beat the Iraqis like a drum. For what? Yeah, Kuwait is now ruled by their hereditary tyrant. What we really needed there was what we did to Germany after WWII. Get rid of Saddam and his Ba'ath Socialist Party. Occupy, reeducate the populace, institute democratic republican rule, and give it time to stabilize under people who are sane. It would have taken 10 to 15 years. Guess what?
We would be almost through if we had taken this course. As it is, look what we have.

Historically, if you examine the oppressed peoples of the world, the vast majority have been oppressed by their own standing military and police forces. Not by outside invaders. It is a dilemma. Our military has a two hundred year tradition of submission to civil authority. Probably the best record in history. It would take very great changes in the situation here in the US before our military could reliably be used against our people in any but the most limited situation.
 
Terry: Let me give you my perspective on this. You've asked some forthright questions that are deserving of serious thought and (hopefully) direct answers, so here we go. (1) Over two hundred years ago a Prussian General named Karl von Clausewitz said "...war is a continuation of politics by other means...". Having said that, I will avoid other dead guy quotes to the maximum extent possible. The only reason I've used this one is that his thoughts (along with Sun Tzu's) are about as good as it gets. Bottom line, Karl had it right. The use of American forces in Military Operations Other Than War (MOOTW), which includes Peace Support Operations (PSOs), Humanitarian Assistance (HA), etc., is designed (as is their use in warfare) to achieve national political ends. Are we doing too much of this...should we be the "world's policeman" and other such questions are being debated constantly by me and my fellow professional soldiers...there are no easy answers and there are pros and cons to both sides. We have done this quite a few times before (Spanish American War, the Phillipines, Central America, Haiti, WWI, etc). It basically comes down to the role of a great power in world affairs...should we be engaged, or should we be isolationist? If you're isolationist, by definition, you can't be a world power because you cannot/will not influence other nations...you can't get inside their "decision cycle" due to your insistance on non-involvement. These are not new problems and I doubt they will ever be resolved one way or the other. The problem now is that the world (I hate to say this, but it is true) is smaller due to modern transportation, communications and economic links. We really are (like it or not) interdependent...what happens in the Balkans or Africa or Asia or the Middle East can have a direct impact on us. These days (as we are not faced by a major peer competitor like the former Soviet Union) our primary concerns are maintenance of peace in those flash points around the world that threaten free access to markets/trade, political/social stability, and overall economic stability. Why? Because any of these areas can affect the well being of this nation and its citizens. For us in the military, the real question is how harmful an effect does constant involvement in MOOTW place on unit (read that personnel/equipment) readiness and training. The operations tempo (OPTEMPO) over the years since our post Cold War peak in Desert Storm and the subsequent downsizing of the military has been brutal...that's why there is greater reliance on high tech solutions and less on the warrior ethos (except in certain types of specialized units). I for one wish our civilian and military leaders in DOD and the NSC would read more Ferenbach than Toffler, and worry less about what initiation rituals certain elite units subject there striplings to. (2) No, the National Guard and Reserves cannot do the job by themselves. Why? Because they cannot get "spun up" fast enough to deploy in a timely manner...because spending a total of approximately 35 days per year training (hopefully) to do your job are not sufficent enough to provide skill levels which will allow one to dominate the battlefield...because much of their equipment is outdated and poorly maintained (35 days a year, remember?) I spent two years as an advisor for NG and USAR units during the late 1980s...they have some great citizen soldiers and leaders, but you cannot make up for lost time...that's why you need a standing army of professionals who do this stuff 24x7x365 for their entire adult lives. (3) Are you getting your tax dollars worth now? IMHO, no, because as I stated above, too much is going into high tech solutions. Don't get me wrong, high tech is good and it can save lives/battles/wars as was demonstrated in the desert. But we still have to train men to use weapons in close, to live under austere conditions and to win battles on the ground. That's the only way you can break a foe's will to fight...by killing his young men on the ground, taking land away from him and holding same, and finally destroying his will and capability to resist. Remember, at a certain point, size (mass) takes on a certain quality of its on...the smaller (better) force doesn't always win, no matter how good it is. Some of us believe that our future peer competitor will be China...I doubt I have to bore you with a description of how large their land force is. I hope this helps and stirs up some thought. It's just one old (soon to be retired) soldier's point of view.
 
Spartacus: Read your excellent post after sending mine in ref Terry's question. I agree with you totally concerning what we should have done vis a vis Iraq...the real problem is that the American people would not have put up with a continued presence in Iraq and the subsequent rotational deployments of their sons and daughters as an army of occupation to that nation. Nor would they have tolerated the loss of their sons and daughters to inevitable guerilla operations by indigenous Iraqis and/or other Islamic fundamentalists who would have surely launched a jihad against any infidel power occupying (by force) an Islamic country. The politicians in DC could not have withstood the pressure...we'd have been pulled out and the job would still be unfinished. Bottom line, Americans are unwilling to pay the price in blood because they are unwilling to make sacrifices on foreign land when called to do so. They are convinced that unless a fight can be virtually painless for us (NO CASUALTIES) it isn't worth fighting. Sad but true...Joe Sixpack is incapable of seeing the big picture unless it is DIRECTLY affecting his comfort zone (his livelihood/cost of gas/ability to purchase goods and services he wants), IMHO.
 
Simple answer. We need a standing Military.We do not need to be in Bosnia,Kosovo,Haiti etc. Probably not in Europe either.Korea Im not sure on.

------------------
Better days to be,

Ed
 
The questions raised are good ones, and though this professional NCO has not a made a career of agreeing with officers, Mike Spight (sir!) has it about straight.

First of all, modern technology puts us far ahead of the other players in conventional warfare. So what do you do when you can not deal with the opposition in a straight on fight?

Well you can outlast the US national (Ho Chi Min) will, or engage in irritating activities that keep you in power while your people suffer horribly (Saddam).

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Washington Post
March 7, 1999
Pg. B1
Soldier Vs. Warrior: The Modern Mismatch
By Ralph Peters

The U.S. military is magnificently prepared to defeat soldiers.
America's forces have the technology, training and raw power to shatter
conventional enemies. The threats we face today, though, and are likely
to face in the coming decades do not arise from other soldiers, with the
disciplined professionalism that term conveys, but from warriors-
individuals of volatile allegiance, who are habituated to violence and
have no stake in civil order.

From Algeria to Northern Ireland, from Chechnya to Colombia, organized
militaries have proven inadequate against the terrorist and warlord, the
holy warrior and mercenary. We in the West are conditioned to protect
the weak. The warrior butchers them. We fight to preserve the rule of
law.

The warrior thrives on lawlessness and havoc. He does not respect
treaties, no matter the flourish with which they are signed, and he
doesn't obey orders when he's not in the mood.

The warrior has been around since Cain killed Abel. It is the soldier,
with his codes of conduct, who is new-developed in Europe and America
over the past three centuries and imitated elsewhere. It seemed the
warrior was in retreat. But now, as empires have disintegrated, and
multiple revolutions-from a deluge of information to the emancipation of
women-threaten the prejudices of traditional societies and failing
states, the warrior is back. He is as brutal as ever, and far better
armed. In news clips and photos, these warriors appear as a mass of
shouting faces or a gang of identical thugs behind sunglasses and ragtag
uniforms.

Governments and militaries tend to view them with the same lack of
differentiation. Two weeks ago, Secretary of State Madeleine Albright
was embarrassed because the Albanian Kosovar rebels were regarded by
American diplomats as a unified group that would respond according to
Western logic.
In Bosnia, we have treated hardened butchers and Balkan Beetle Baileys
as if they were identical, failing to root out the men who will shatter
any peace the day we leave.

By reaching to understand the men behind the guns, we can take an
initial step toward defeating them. Warriors fall into distinct types,
or social pools, as they have throughout history. Although these pools
are fluid, and warriors may move among them at different stages-or even
exhibit traits from many-there are five basic sorts of warriors. Some
are much more dangerous than others. Some can be redeemed for productive
lives.

A hard core must be killed or imprisoned, if any peace is to endure. The
first pool of warriors is drawn from the underclass of society. These
are the followers, not the leaders. But they do the leader's bidding in
the early, crucible days of a conflict. These are males who have no
stake in peace, losers with little education, no legal earning power, a
history of dysfunctional or nonexistent relationships with women- and no
future. They are Hitler's Brownshirts and Serb gang rapists, the teens
at the African roadblock and the men who killed the tourists in Uganda
last week. They are also the Timothy McVeighs of the world. With gun in
hand and the spittle of an ideology on his lips, the first-pool warrior
murders those who once slighted him, seizes the women who avoided him
and plunders that which he never otherwise would have possessed. The
half-understood rhetoric of a cause lends him a notion of personal
dignity he may never have sensed before, but his dedication to his cause
is rarely as enduring as his taste for spoils. He will, however, cling
to his empowering military garb and his cherished identity. With no
marketable skills, he sees peace as the end of the good times. He
thrives on tumult-a fact our diplomats refuse to accept.

As conflicts lengthen-closing schools, disrupting worship, breaking
communities and ravaging families-young men who would otherwise have
pursued productive lives are drawn, or pushed, into violence. These
reluctant warriors form a second pool and expand the ranks of clan feuds
or national rebellions. They swelled the rioting of the intifada, and
found they had no choice but to chose a side in Liberia or Sierra Leone.
They are the cannon fodder of revolution. Yet their commitment to
violence is weak. If the conflict does not drag on too long, they may
be redeemed-or at least persuaded that the continuation of the struggle
is not worth the risk. If the first pool provides the born killers, this
second, much larger pool is composed of those who would rather live in
peace, given the chance. But long and savage conflicts ruin them, too.
The warrior who takes up a Kalashnikov at 13 is unlikely to go back to
secondary school 10 years later-if the school reopens.

The third pool of warriors is made up of the monsters who smile and
toast you with vodka. These are the opportunists, the entrepreneurs of
conflict, whose great strength is their cynicism. When it is
advantageous, they may speak eloquently of "the cause," but their real
cause is themselves. These are the Saddams and Milosevics, the drug
lords and the Russian gangsters in or out of government, the warlords
who change sides with ease-and who agree to anything the president's
special envoy demands until his back is turned. These chameleons of
conflict are not constrained by faction or morality, or even, in the
end, by the ties of family, tribe or clan that limit the flexibility or
broader appeal of other warrior chieftains. They are masters of timing
and surprise, and usually have superb intelligence networks-because they
will deal with anyone. Often touched with a dark genius, these
third-pool warriors are underestimated as mere criminals, until the ax
comes down.

The fourth pool of warriors is made up of the true believers, those who
will die for a cause, whether a religion, an ideology, a nationalist
vision, or a conviction of ethnic superiority and a desire to avenge
wrongs suffered-whether real or imagined. Even when they are our
enemies, they are heroes to their own people-another thing we fail to
understand. They wore down the great empires, and now see us as the last
empire of evil. They do not deal rationally by our standards, and we
falter when we rely on them to do so. Repeatedly, we have failed to see
the appeal of the upright man-perceived as such by his own people-who
hates us and who is willing to propagate endless slaughter to drive us
away, and to use weapons of mass destruction when acquired. This pool
includes the Osama bin Ladens, the Che Guevaras, the Ho Chi Minhs.

Dispossessed, cashiered or otherwise failed military men form the fifth
and final pool of warriors. Officers, NCOs or privates who emerged from
a dissolving military establishment, or who broke from one in which
they failed, bring rudimentary combat skills to the other warriors. The
fittest of these men become warlords or even military dictators. These
warriors heighten the level of bloodshed and the more accomplished
provide a nucleus of internationally available mercenaries. They are the
amphetamines of conflict, increasing the velocity of death and
destruction. Given that most civil strife is begun by less than 1
percent of the population, a few mercenaries or military veterans can
make a decisive difference in the demolition of an entire
state-especially in the early phases of a conflict. These are the
Russian and Ukrainian mercenaries haunting the world's bloody
backwaters, and the Aideeds or Mobutus, but they are also cashiered or
retired Western soldiers who whore their skills to kill their one-time
comrades. The imposition of peace just drives them elsewhere. Until
fierce international laws are formulated and enforced against them, they
will continue to plague the world.

The "peace deals" so beloved of American negotiators and presidents come
apart because they do not address the warrior. Peacekeeping forces
content to let him bide his time or even rearm will build no peace worth
keeping. The warriors who wish to reconstruct their lives-the majority,
in most conflicts-must be given the opportunity to do so. Those who go
underground, shifting from warfare to crime, must be pursued. And those
who will not lay down their arms for good must be imprisoned or killed.

Without a program to disarm, engage and rehabilitate the mass of
warriors, a peace is nothing but a truce. The difficulty, of course, is
that the more broken the state, the less its ability to absorb
demobilized warriors, whether Balkan thugs in uniform or Khmer Rouge who
have known no lives apart from war. What's more, we must recognize the
complexity of today's conflicts, which do not have the clarity of
Private Ryan's war. One of the most memorable characters I met in the
Transcaucasus, during the worst days of the Karabakh war, was an ethnic
Armenian dental student, a Lebanese citizen trained by the PLO in the
Bekaa Valley to fight Turkic Azeris. He combined heroic commitment with
reflexive hatred.

Even the warrior's chosen symbols confuse us, and tempt us to dismiss
the killer as a clown. The least attractive figure I encountered abroad
was a bearded thug in a black uniform who wore a homemade metal swastika
on his breast pocket. He just thought it was cool. During the early
years of the fighting in Yugoslavia, Rambo lookalikes were everywhere.
In Somalia, warlords infected with Hollywood-itis took Anglo names such
as "Jess" or "Morgan." In the past, the typical mercenary wanted money,
loot, women and drink. His modern counterpart also wants to be a star.
There are steps we can and must take to prepare our forces and ourselves
to face these warriors in the future. The first thing we require is
clarity of purpose,
and the next is strength of will. Both of these are utterly lacking in
the present administration-but future administrations may prove no more
decisive. We have grown soft, and like our killing done at a distance.

Our enemies will shove their knives in our faces. Beyond acts of
terror, they will not threaten our nation. But they will be deadly
enemies for the soldiers we send abroad.

Next, we must stop imagining that human problems inevitably have
technological solutions and that increasing the defense budget is the
answer to everything. At a time when the bloody hand of man ravages
continents, we spend our treasure on multibillion-dollar aircraft to
dogfight enemies that don't exist. We already have the weapons to deal
with warriors, but lack the leadership and commitment.

Our leaders must learn that you cannot bargain or compromise with mass
murderers. With warriors, you either win or lose. They are impressed
only by strength and the resolve to use it. Until we face up to the evil
in the world, our forces will be no more than modern redcoats, marching
into a hostile wilderness they do not understand.

Ralph Peters is a retired army officer and a novelist. This article is
adapted from his forthcoming book, "Fighting for the Future"
(Stackpole).
[/quote]

These are my observations, they do not reflect the views of my chain of command nor any one officially. They do reflect the sum of 27 years of military experience, a BA in International Relations, and a somewhat rigorous analysis of the current world situation and the military.

Ralph Peters makes some very good points here. Not the least of which is that the real problems in the Kosovos of the world are the disincentives for the "warriors" for peace.

The thugs who have looted, raped and pillaged their way through the last half dozen to dozen years (or decades) are predisposed to continue. Their lack of governing skills and political inexperience causes them to seek strife, for it is what they are comfortable with.

In the unrest of a disfunctional society mass murderers and rapists go unpunished. Peace brings with it, (because the pacifying external forces insist) the return of law. Those who have behaved lawlessly, taking what ever they wished at the gunpoint, raping, and killing any who they merely dislike have absolutely no incentive to allow peace to break out.

If you were Milosevic would you really want any peace that might bring with it accountability for the atrocities that you had ordered or allowed or overlooked?

In these fragmented societies, the rule of force is absolute, the threat of the US military is meaningless if that we can not purge these actors from their societies.

In the Balkans if we were to send a large enough force to impose martial law, arrest and try and execute all the miscreants, we might have a chance of allowing the meek to inherit that earth. If we were to do so would we be any less ruthless and violative of human rights than these criminals?

We as a nation have not the collective will to engage in the the destruction in detail of the plunderers of these regions. If we fail to kill or imprison them we are fooling ourselves in believing that there can be peace.

Had we accepted the long term risks with an occupation of Iraq, and had been willing to meet the threats from other Islamic nations, could we have succeeded in establishing a democratic (in the true sense of the term) regime in Irag?

Saddam has proven conclusively to me that the proper response to a sovereign who does not abide by his commitments is to kill him. If we were to be successful in Kosovo we would have to arrest Milosevic, and try him. This would require a lot more than 4,000 soldiers. It would require a force capable of rooting out and destroying in detail all the "warriors".

About the only criticism I have of Peters is that the word warrior has for me a positive implication, a reflection of a dedication to a higher cause. Here he uses it to describe men whose lives revolve around maintaining war for the disfunction of society. The confusion of civil war, while each side is concerned for its political survival, suspends the enforcement of laws against murder, rape, and pillage. Laws are not high priorities. All of these thugs realize that should peace breakout their freedom of action, perhaps their very lives will be at stake.

Those of you who have seen the "Opium Wars" on PBS know that these "warriors" do not/will not bargain away their only protection from the retribution they have coming.

The question is not, do we need a standing army, for we certainly do, which also needs it Reserve Components, because we can not bring our selves as a nation to pay for both the "tooth" and the "tail" to support those teeth.

The technologies of modern warfare are employed with real demonstrated acumen by few nation states, most of them in the west and in NATO. Yet that technology does not give us either the national will nor the forces to go into Chechnya, or Kosovo and do what must be done if we are to effect an end to the bloodshed.

Is that a legitimate end for US policy?

Is it a threat to the US security that there is no peace in the Balkans?

Does the continuation of the hide and seek game for Weapons of Mass Destruction with Iraq and extranationals like Osama bin Laden really net the US additional security?

Can we succeed in the international milieu with a policy that seems more reactionary than planned?

Do we understand that the failure to address these problems now will leave us analyzing the tremendous costs of dealing with them later?

Would we, had we had true visionaries leading the US, avoided the horror of WWII had we moved to quash Hitler much earlier?

Would the resolution of the Cold War have been less painful had we turned on the Soviets after finishing up the Germans and Italians?

Or was the Reagan policy spending the Russians into bankruptcy the best course?

Is it better to ignore the plight of the poor who do not directly figure in our national needs in the immediate picture (Kosovo)?

Do we, as the sole superpower in the world, a free democratic state, have a moral obligation to encourage, nuture, protect the spirit that made our forefathers throw off the shackles of colonialism?

Only the American people can answer these questions collectively.

Are we always right to intervene?

Not if my understanding of Vietnam is anywhere near correct.

Is it OK to ignore the plight of the Kurds in Irag, or the victims of ethnic cleansing in the Balkans?

I think not. But what matters is do we have a national leader on the political lanscape who can articulate a cogent policy? Who can sell his course of action to the American electorate and then stay the course in spite of polls fluctuating wildly?

Ladies and Gentlemen, the nature of global politics has changed in detail, but the threats are more diverse and the risks more imminent than ever before.

Vote, advocate, speak for your preference.

Spight and I and our comrades in arms, train and prepare to prosecute the will of the nation. Be sure that what those elected to represent you undertake is what you collectively want.

Let no one kid you, this is not a safer world now that it is not bipolar. This is not the time to stand down the military. If you do that, history says you will have to stand one up again, and it will be under the same dire threats that we had the last disarmament cycle.

------------------
Ni ellegimit carborundum esse!

Yours In Marksmanship
http://www.1bigred.com/distinguished

michael




[This message has been edited by Michael Carlin (edited March 15, 1999).]
 
Mike & Michael,
Well said. You have provided us with serious points to ponder. There are no easy answers.

My opinions for what they're worth:

Should the U.S. keep a standing army? Yes. The stronger, larger, better equipt and better trained the better. There are far too many so called world leaders who only understand one thing, brute force. Better they fear our power.
We should always bear in mind that no matter how great our technology, in the end its the individual soldier on the ground that makes the difference. He is the one we need to be concerned with. Do not risk his life for political purposes. If he must go to war, make sure it is worth it. Do not let him die in vain.

Civil wars and internal power struggles of other nations are none of our bussiness. Let those nations reach their own conclusions.

However, the wholesale murder of civillians, "ethnic cleansing" or other crimes against humanity must be stopped. We can not and must not let another Holocaust happen.

When we do enter into battle, let us do so with the full intension of crushing the enemy and either imprison or kill their leaders. Half way measures do more harm than good.


"No bastard ever won a war by dieing for his country, he won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country"- George S. Patton.
 
Patton did utter some very quotable quotes, didn't he? If I can paraphrase, my favorite was "If one or two people call you a horse's ass, don't worry about it. If eight or nine people call you a horse's ass, you'd better start looking for a saddle."!

While I am a libertarian in my politics, I do believe in a standing army. IMHO, it is one of the few proper governmental roles. OTOH, there is a limit, and bigger and bigger, more and more expensive is not better and better. I don't know the proper size, but I find it hard to believe we're not at least there already. Of course, when you scatter troops all over the globe they start getting spread a bit thin.

I think we have gone way too far in our involvements. When I think of terrorist acts committed against Americans, I think of the bully who goes around town picking fights. Someday, somehow, he comes to grief at the hands of one of his intended victims or their loved one(s). IMHO we get way too involved in other peoples' battles, and sometimes our government makes grievous mistakes that can stir terrible responses, as perhaps happened in OK City. (BTW, I'm not saying we are always or even usually a bully, but we are sometimes. And, we are usually perceived so by at least one contingent.)

For example, regarding involvement, I never did fully understand the logic of our foray into Panama. That made sense, but going after Saddam did not? They lost me on that one.

I will readily grant that, with the notable exception of our finish (or lack thereof), the Persian Gulf War was at least a dedicated effort. In spite of BS reasons to feed the American public. At least in the Persian Gulf case we took the proper lesson from Vietnam - fight to win - we're talking human lives here.

This will probably draw major flames, and let me first state I do appreciate and admire our professional soldiers. I consider it a very honorable profession ... on a volunteer basis. However, I have a lot of problems with the draft. Perhaps it was originally intended to muster troops for the survival of society, but in Vietnam it became a cynical system of feeding a disgusting machine. While it is technically not in effect at present, I would have a great deal of trouble seeing my boys drafted by a dangerous liar such as Bill Clinton. Duty? I feel our politicians have made clear their own concept of the same, and it doesn't justify my family's lives. This is considerably different than a discussion of personal and community defense, IMHO. I know - some will tell me you can't run a country this way. Well, we reap what we sow.

To the extent we choose to have a professional armed force, we have a duty as civilians to adequately support their needs for training, equipment, maintenance, supplies and compensation. Anything less is immoral. And, sending them into harm's way in a poorly conceived ideological whim is equally immoral. Ala Somalia.

From what I have seen, most of the truly grievous national calamities have been a result of ... gun control! The Serbs have great weapons, the Bosnians are disarmed and rounded up into disarmed 'safe areas'. The US and our European allies prevent the underdogs from obtaining adequate weapons. Surprise - massacres. How many times do we need to learn this lesson?

BTW, what ever happened to the concept of volunteer citizen involvement internationally, such as Hemingway? If you feel a burning desire to fight Kurds, or Somalis, or Iraqis, I don't have a problem with you raising a private army to help out. I just don't see why U.S. citizens must be forced to either pay for and / or serve in someone else's idea for a charity mission.

Yes to standing armed forces. No to over involvement. Yes to adequate resources for the armed forces. No to forced service in the draft. With respect, from AZ.


[This message has been edited by Jeff Thomas (edited March 16, 1999).]
 
Clausewitz wrote "On War" in the early 1800's after the end of the Napoleonic Wars. The first edition was published in 1832.
Will was one of his major themes. National will. It is almost impossible to achieve victory in war without it. Therefore, it follows that if national will is not present, do not get involved in the war.

Another maxim is that no nation has ever benefitted from a protracted war. Think about it.

Vietnam? I would certainly have to agree with our stated motive for being there. The question is always asked,"Should we have been in Vietnam?" This is not the proper question. The proper question is should we have made committements-formalized with binding treaties-guaranteeing the political integrity of South Vietnam? Once having done this, our only path of honor was to honor our committment-come what may.

Another area I have never seen discussed is the failure to perform their duty of the Joint Chiefs of Staff during this period. The Joint Chiefs knew that the policies of their civil superiors were fatally flawed when analysed by the basic tenets of military strategy. A green graduate of West Point, Annapolis, or the Air Force Academy would know it. They had the duty to inform their civil superiors of these fatal flaws and did so. However, an officer at this level has a duty beyond shutting up and soldiering when given unworkable policies by the civil authority. He has the duty to resign in protest when faced by orders of this nature and then when no longer bound by his commission-to speak out on this issue and to inform the polity. This they failed to do. There is only one possible defense of their failure and it weak. That they believed that the US was so much stronger than the enemy that violating every single strategic concept known to man did not matter. It did not work.
 
We should not have American troops in other countries unless invited. Also we Americans have short memories: We have already been whipped by one of the smallest countries on earth and if we are not careful it could happen again. As for a standing army - Yes we should have one but not at our present level of strenght.
 
I have some real problems - some of which I am even aware! :) Here’s a
few of them:

Problem one: I am in favor of a standing military (ie Army, Navy, Air Force,
Marines, & Coast Guard). Is this against the intent of our Forefathers? If we
justify a standing military force because “times have changed”, do we not justify
the same argument against the Second Amendment? Can we pick and choose
when to apply a specific argument? How do we do that?

Problem two: I have some really strong problems with differentiating between a
warrior (and all its various sub-division) and a soldier. They are NOT mutually
exclusive and this is not a mere “word game”. To say one is moral and the other
immoral and “must be killed or imprisoned” raises the question of who is doing
that evaluation? Chuck Schumer (for example)? Have we not yet learned that one
man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter? Do we judge each group
separately against our ideals or make blanket judgements such as no cause is just
unless they can fund a standing army? I think that is a risky road for believers in
the Second Amendment.

Problem three: A standing force cries out for use.
** If we are to be strong, we must have a strong military. But I have a problem
with our intervention into the former Yugoslavia. They were united temporarily
only by brute force. Otherwise, they have been killing each other for centuries.
Colin Powell stated that it was not very bright to stick your hand into a hornets’
nest thinking that your mere presence would pacify the hornets. I tend to agree.
Our interventions in other countries, (eg Somalia) have cost American lives in
efforts I fear were more personally political than idealistic or even in our so-called
“national interests”.
** A standing (para-military) police force, regardless of how many different
segments there are, cries out for use to gain political backing, funding, emotional
support, etc.

Problem four: I fear our government, in its apparent headlong rush to establish a
world ruling body, is sacrificing American freedoms and citizens to achieve greater
compliance with “more civilized” countries such as Japan, Britain, Australia, and
Canada. (When I feel REALLY bad I add Russia, China, etc.!)

Problem five: Mr. Jeff Thomas! Please sit down, close your eyes and take ten
slow breaths before proceeding! (loooong pause) We agree again. :D

Side note: Microsoft Works spelling checker says “Schumer” is not valid and
should be replaced with “Schemer”. LOL!
 
Spartacus: Good catch...as I fat fingered the key board in a daze, I typed "two" vice "one". One area where Carl had it wrong is your example of "...no nation ever benefited from a protracted war...". Some have mentioned Vietnam as an example of getting engaged in something you cannot win...I would submit that Vietnam certainly benefited from a protracted war...they won their "freedom" from foreign domination (Chinese, Japanese, French, US) or undue influence in their internal affairs...if you were to ask the average YOUNG citizen of that nation, they would probably say that it was worth it.
 
Mike,

I would agree that Vietnam benefitted from a protracted war with reservations. A superficial analysis would produce independence and autonomy as benefits. However, when this is balanced with the negative results of the war to Vietnam as a whole,i.e, loss of productivity, loss of life, loss of individual human potential, loss of cultural potential, global isolation, becoming a client state of the Soviets (Vietnamese saying-Russians are Americans without money :)), and the total alienation of a large portion of their most talented people- I do not believe it can be said that Vietnam benefitted. Their struggle for national independence and unification while a success in regard to those two objectives was a catastrophe for their nation. They will spend at least a century recovering from the thirty four year war they engaged in. I have the utmost respect for them (while not being blind to the flaws of their system by any means). Granted, this analysis is outside the scope of military planning. Once again the civil authority failed but in this case the North Vietnamese military succeeded.

An interesting side note: There were four belligerents in this war-the North Vietnamese, the Viet Cong, the South Vietnamese, and the Americans (with some allies). How many analyses have you encountered that realize that the Viet Cong also lost? Consider. The strategic objective (definition of victory) of the Viet Cong was twofold: 1)the unification of Vietnam and 2) the sharing of power in a post unification Vietnam. While the first requirement for Viet Cong victory was met, the second requirement was not. The Viet Cong never recovered from their near annihilation in the 1968 Tet Offensive. Their surviving cadre was brushed aside after reunification in 1975. Their voice and power in the postwar government was nil. They were used to destruction by the North. They lost.
 
Yes, of course, if the U.S. is to remain a superpower that takes on the problems of the world, then we need a well-trained and well-equipped (read: exotically expensive) standing army.

In contrast, I am an unabashed isolationist and would like to see the U.S. devolve from its status as superpower into a neutral nation much like a larger Switzerland. Citizens-solidiers would serve in lieu of a standing army while a small navy and air force would serve to protect the borders and air space. With the money saved, we could become a nation of bankers providing confidential financial services for the world withou any questions asked: No income tax, no sales tax, no property tax, a small corporate tax, other revenue raised by tariffs and landing fees. Hey, it is a nice fantasy, but great things begin with dreams.
 
Trevor: I think your isolationist concept hinges on energy independence, does it not? And energy was the prime reason for the Gulf War...

Seems to me the rest of our trade can occur without a standing army to ensure access to markets.

I'd guess the consensus of these posts is that our standing armed forces are necessary, absent a serious amount of policy discussions/debates about a change in our perceived duties to the world. There also seems to be accord that there has been a tremendous number of unwise uses of these forces...

I'm gonna be doing a lot of re-reading of this thread--lots of beef!
 
Spartacus: Excellent point ref the VC "loss" at the end of a 30+ year conflict. Others have made that same point, and I tend to agree. The Northerners screwed them to the floor once it was all over. They didn't trust them and generally considered the VC contribution post 68 Tet as being essentially irrelevant. As to the country being worse or better off now is certainly an item for debate. I fought them and I have utmost respect for them as soldiers and as a culture. What's really unfortunate is that if the US government had followed up on promises the OSS had made to Ho Chi Minh in the early 40s (keep the French out after the war) in return for Viet Minh action against the Japanese, the entire post WWII debacle could have possibly been avoided.
 
Re: The Gulf War. Yes, the Gulf War was fought to make the world safe for Big Oil. Considering that Bush was an oil industry executive at one time, it is not surprising that Americans were sold a bill of goods on that one. Meanwhile, American oil producers in Louisiana, Texas, and Oklahoma continue to go broke and out of business. Neutral nations can and do trade for energy products. When you are holding the world's money supply, people will respect you. Besides, alternative energy research has had little financial incentive to develop since oil prices dropped in the mid-80s. The shortages of the 70s may be gone but should not be forgotten.
 
I have heard for years that there are huge oil reserves off the shore of southern Vietnam. I'm not a geologist so I don't know if it's true.

The US has enough oil for our domestic needs. True, we might have to develop alternative sources. Return to nuclear, (gasp!), use our truly vast coal reserves, develop hydrogen, etc. The problem is Europe. The oil exporting nations have Europe by the short hairs well and truly. The only war we have fought in this century that did not come from the screwups of European diplomats is the Korean War and that includes getting attacked by the Japanese in WWII. The majority of our ancestors came here to get away from the policies of those idiots and what happened?
 
And I could make a darn good case of Korea resulting from European diplomatic policies. It would be more indirect than WWI, WWII, Vietnam, Desert Storm, etc.
 
Back
Top