Standard vs. sawed-off?
- Thread starter DasBoot
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leadcounsel
Moderator
As you know, short barreled (less than 18") shotguns are illegal under FEDERAL law.
Edited to correct barrel size as it was a misstatement.
Edited to correct barrel size as it was a misstatement.
Last edited:
Dfariswheel
New member
As above, barrel length has very little to do with pattern size, that's a function of the type of choke.
As a good rule of thumb, a Cylinder bore (no choke) barrel will spread at the rate of about one inch per yard.
At 10 feet the pattern will be about 3 to 4 inches.
This means that "shooting from the hip" will mean clear misses.
You do need to aim or at least "point" the shotgun with the stock in the shoulder to guarantee hits.
Years ago, the NRA Dope Bag staff did a test to determine just what's what with shotguns.
They bought a Marlin Goose Gun with a 36 inch barrel, fitted it with a choke and shot it for pattern and through a chronograph.
They then cut the barrel off one inch, refitted the choke and repeated the tests cutting the barrel in one inch increments.
Their tests showed the following:
Anything balistically that's going to happen in a shotgun barrel happens within 18 inches.
A barrel over 28 inches actually starts to loose velocity due to friction.
Barrel length has nothing to do with patterns or velocity in normal length barrels from 18 inches to 28 inches.
The patterns and velocities didn't "get out of hand" until the barrel was down to 12 inches.
The idea that longer barrels shoot "harder" or farther is a left over from the days of black powder guns.
The idea that shorter barrels spread more is not valid. Choke is the deciding factor.
A Cylinder bore 18 inch barrel will shoot virtually identical patterns to a Cylinder bore 36 inch barrel, and the same holds true with a Full choke 18 or 36 inch barrel.
=============================================
What can impact patterns is the type of shells used.
Modern buckshot ammo has buffering material and shot cups that cause the shot to stay in tighter patterns.
The newer "reduced recoil" ammo typically shoots even tighter patterns.
There used to be special "spreader" loads available that had cardboard inserts in the shell that caused the shot to spread faster, but today the emphasis is on getting the tightest patterns possible.
For a true inside the house defense gun, extra tight patterning ammo may not be the best choice when the maximum range possible is seldom over 30 feet.
Unfortunately, this fact is not addressed by the ammo makers, and the drive continues to be tighter and tighter patterns.
Bottom line, the best choice for a home defense gun is the 18 inch barrel, Cylinder bore gun, loaded with ammo that shoots the most open patterns.
To judge what to expect, pattern the gun and ammo to determine how that combination actually works, then measure the longest distance you could shoot inside your house.
Usually the one inch-per-yard formula will be valid.
As a good rule of thumb, a Cylinder bore (no choke) barrel will spread at the rate of about one inch per yard.
At 10 feet the pattern will be about 3 to 4 inches.
This means that "shooting from the hip" will mean clear misses.
You do need to aim or at least "point" the shotgun with the stock in the shoulder to guarantee hits.
Years ago, the NRA Dope Bag staff did a test to determine just what's what with shotguns.
They bought a Marlin Goose Gun with a 36 inch barrel, fitted it with a choke and shot it for pattern and through a chronograph.
They then cut the barrel off one inch, refitted the choke and repeated the tests cutting the barrel in one inch increments.
Their tests showed the following:
Anything balistically that's going to happen in a shotgun barrel happens within 18 inches.
A barrel over 28 inches actually starts to loose velocity due to friction.
Barrel length has nothing to do with patterns or velocity in normal length barrels from 18 inches to 28 inches.
The patterns and velocities didn't "get out of hand" until the barrel was down to 12 inches.
The idea that longer barrels shoot "harder" or farther is a left over from the days of black powder guns.
The idea that shorter barrels spread more is not valid. Choke is the deciding factor.
A Cylinder bore 18 inch barrel will shoot virtually identical patterns to a Cylinder bore 36 inch barrel, and the same holds true with a Full choke 18 or 36 inch barrel.
=============================================
What can impact patterns is the type of shells used.
Modern buckshot ammo has buffering material and shot cups that cause the shot to stay in tighter patterns.
The newer "reduced recoil" ammo typically shoots even tighter patterns.
There used to be special "spreader" loads available that had cardboard inserts in the shell that caused the shot to spread faster, but today the emphasis is on getting the tightest patterns possible.
For a true inside the house defense gun, extra tight patterning ammo may not be the best choice when the maximum range possible is seldom over 30 feet.
Unfortunately, this fact is not addressed by the ammo makers, and the drive continues to be tighter and tighter patterns.
Bottom line, the best choice for a home defense gun is the 18 inch barrel, Cylinder bore gun, loaded with ammo that shoots the most open patterns.
To judge what to expect, pattern the gun and ammo to determine how that combination actually works, then measure the longest distance you could shoot inside your house.
Usually the one inch-per-yard formula will be valid.
Jeepmark2005
New member
I thought that the improved cylinder was the preferred barrel for 00 Buck and slugs ? That is what remington uses in their police shotguns. Maybe the cylinder bore spreads more than the improved cylinder? Is that what you mean as a preferred HD set up? To induce spread?
alot has to do with the load....I use 3" magnum Sellier & Belliot, 15 pellet 00 buck, in a 20" cylinder bore Mossberg pump. They don't have a shot cup, which I believe makes them spread out very quickly (based on patterning I've done)..
Still, at really short ranges (a few feet) they haven't spread much (but at 5 feet the muzzle blast is probably lethal
), but by the time they get out to 35-40 feet, they've spread out to about a 24" pattern. With 15 pellets, this'll still put quite a few on a man-sized target. I have a large house and a 40' shot is very possible. #4 birdshot (w/ a shot cup) actually gives a slightly tighter pattern.
P.S. Many years ago I knew someone who had a double that was cut well below the current legal limit(and the stock cut to a pistol grip)...Maybe 9-10" barrels IIRC, just in front of the small forearm...I fired it a couple times with #4 birdshot and at 15 ft. it threw about a 24" pattern... So if barrels are REALLY short (and have no choke), they do spread real fast. this thing was kinda hard to aim, as you hadda put off-hand over the barrels, just to hang on to it....not very practical(but scary looking!)
Still, at really short ranges (a few feet) they haven't spread much (but at 5 feet the muzzle blast is probably lethal
), but by the time they get out to 35-40 feet, they've spread out to about a 24" pattern. With 15 pellets, this'll still put quite a few on a man-sized target. I have a large house and a 40' shot is very possible. #4 birdshot (w/ a shot cup) actually gives a slightly tighter pattern.P.S. Many years ago I knew someone who had a double that was cut well below the current legal limit(and the stock cut to a pistol grip)...Maybe 9-10" barrels IIRC, just in front of the small forearm...I fired it a couple times with #4 birdshot and at 15 ft. it threw about a 24" pattern... So if barrels are REALLY short (and have no choke), they do spread real fast. this thing was kinda hard to aim, as you hadda put off-hand over the barrels, just to hang on to it....not very practical(but scary looking!)
Dfariswheel
New member
"I thought that the improved cylinder was the preferred barrel for 00 Buck and slugs?"
The Improved Cylinder has become the most popular with manufacturers over the last few years, due to it usually shooting slightly tighter patterns with buckshot, and tighter groups with slugs.
Today, short barreled shotguns are being built with police and hunters mostly in mind, and the emphasis is on tighter patterns and groups at a distance.
Mostly what you read about are how nice and tight a gun/choke/ammo is shooting.
The idea of the defense shotgun is the ability to very quickly "point" the gun and hit the target.
In shotguns, "speed kills.... the Bad Guy".
The tighter the pattern, the more carefully you have to "aim" in order to get a hit, and the slower the gun is to get hits.
The single biggest advantage of the shotgun is the speed at which you can hit targets.
While a rifle or pistol shooter is still aligning his sights and getting them on target, a good shotgunner has already "taken care of the problem" and moved on.
In a TRUE "inside-the-house" gun you usually want a more open pattern since this increases the chances of hitting the target.
Even a more open pattern will still shoot small enough patterns inside the typical dwelling, that all the pellets will still hit a center-mass shot.
Even in a completely open Cylinder bore gun, the typical shot pattern isn't all that big at the shorter ranges possible inside a house or apartment.
In these cases, the most open choke possible is usually better, AS LONG as you understand that OUTSIDE where ranges could be longer, the gun may shoot too open a pattern.
In truth, most actual uses of the civilian shotgun take place at very close range.
People insist on having a "HD" (Home Defense) shotgun, but then use chokes and ammo more suited to POLICE use which can take place at longer ranges than they would ever likely be able to shoot at.
What you have to do is take a long look at your particular defense needs and set up your gun for the most likely situation.
If you live in a house or apartment and plan on using a shotgun for inside defense against intruders, you want a more open spread.
However, if you live in a more open neighborhood or on a farm or ranch, you may have to shoot outside, in which case you'd want a tighter shooting gun.
It doesn't make much sense to live in a home where the longest shot you could make is 25 feet, but you're using a gun and ammo set up for 40 yards.
One of the shotguns strong points is it's ability to change to meet the need. You can set the gun up for the most LIKELY situation, but you have to decide what situation is MOST likely.
The Improved Cylinder has become the most popular with manufacturers over the last few years, due to it usually shooting slightly tighter patterns with buckshot, and tighter groups with slugs.
Today, short barreled shotguns are being built with police and hunters mostly in mind, and the emphasis is on tighter patterns and groups at a distance.
Mostly what you read about are how nice and tight a gun/choke/ammo is shooting.
The idea of the defense shotgun is the ability to very quickly "point" the gun and hit the target.
In shotguns, "speed kills.... the Bad Guy".
The tighter the pattern, the more carefully you have to "aim" in order to get a hit, and the slower the gun is to get hits.
The single biggest advantage of the shotgun is the speed at which you can hit targets.
While a rifle or pistol shooter is still aligning his sights and getting them on target, a good shotgunner has already "taken care of the problem" and moved on.
In a TRUE "inside-the-house" gun you usually want a more open pattern since this increases the chances of hitting the target.
Even a more open pattern will still shoot small enough patterns inside the typical dwelling, that all the pellets will still hit a center-mass shot.
Even in a completely open Cylinder bore gun, the typical shot pattern isn't all that big at the shorter ranges possible inside a house or apartment.
In these cases, the most open choke possible is usually better, AS LONG as you understand that OUTSIDE where ranges could be longer, the gun may shoot too open a pattern.
In truth, most actual uses of the civilian shotgun take place at very close range.
People insist on having a "HD" (Home Defense) shotgun, but then use chokes and ammo more suited to POLICE use which can take place at longer ranges than they would ever likely be able to shoot at.
What you have to do is take a long look at your particular defense needs and set up your gun for the most likely situation.
If you live in a house or apartment and plan on using a shotgun for inside defense against intruders, you want a more open spread.
However, if you live in a more open neighborhood or on a farm or ranch, you may have to shoot outside, in which case you'd want a tighter shooting gun.
It doesn't make much sense to live in a home where the longest shot you could make is 25 feet, but you're using a gun and ammo set up for 40 yards.
One of the shotguns strong points is it's ability to change to meet the need. You can set the gun up for the most LIKELY situation, but you have to decide what situation is MOST likely.
Death from Afar
New member
Dude, with an 18 inch barrel , and if the gun is back bored, you can actually get surprisingly tight pattersn with game loads. ( check out a vang comp barrel)...But....I have used 18 inch guns for shooting for 20 years, and unless your game is very close, they are next to useless. Your pattern is huge, with holes in it big enough to drive a tank through. Pattern the gun, and you will see what I mean. I have tried to hit pigeons with an 18 inch barrel- I was in a blind, we had shot around 300 birds, and my pump gun had just turned up- and it was HOPELESS. Get a 87 kit with the spare long barrel if you want a short and a long.
In your original question, the barrel that is sawed off with produce a larger pattern because you have removed the choke when you cut the barrel off.
How much larger is purely a guess. You would need to pattern the gun to see for yourself.
I personally disagree with the idea of trying to get an open choked gun for personal defense. Keep in mind that I am no shotgun expert and am just expressing my personal opinion. First of all I question whether you can get the pattern to open up any significant amount at inside the home distances. In other words, let's say you are talking about my house. The furthest shot you could have would be something like 30-40 feet. Just how much bigger of a pattern could you have in that distance ? IMO, it would be measured in a few inches: not enough to give you any kind of an advantage in hitting the target. So, since the pattern isn't going to be significantly bigger inside a house, why not make the gun shoot nice tight buckshot patterns as far as possible just in case you need to make a longer shot ? Also keep in mind that there is a point of diminishing returns: as the pattern gets bigger, the effectiveness decreases-if you arn't hitting the target with all the pellets, it isn't nearly as effective. By the same token, if you don't hit the target with all the pellets you now have stray pellets going downrange.
Second, hitting something with a full load of buckshot is absolutely devastating. Hitting someone with a couple pellets isn't even in the same ballpark. IMO, the strongest point of the shotgun isn't the speed with which you can hit the target, it is the massive raw power of the shotgun. This power comes from big pellets or slugs all hitting the target in the vitals. It has been my personal experience that I can't hit targets any faster with a shotgun than I can with a carbine or handgun. As has been mentioned in this thread by others, you absolutely have to aim a shotgun to hit something. The pattern isn't big enough to just spray and pray. AND, just like any other weapon, the shot needs to hit the target in the vital organs. The pattern needs to be centered in the center mass of the target. I have taken a couple defensive shotgun classes and cleanly missed a few targets during the classes because I was lax in aiming at the target. So I have proven to myself that you need to aim the shotgun.
And finally: "As you know, short barreled (less than 18") shotguns are illegal under FEDERAL law."
As you mentioned, this has nothing to do with your question, however I have to point out that this statement is absolutely incorrect. Federal law specifically allows shotguns with barrels less than 18". They are specifically allowed by the National Firearms Act of 1934. Short barreled shotguns are an NFA weapon and therefore require a tax stamp. The fact that they require a tax stamp does not in any way shape or form mean that they are illegal. In fact it means just the opposite: they are specifically addressed as being legal. There may be local laws against short barreled shotguns, but under Federal law, they are completely legal. I own a Remington 870 with a Vang Comp 14" barrel. I have a Form 4 signed by ATF as well as my local sheriff saying that it is perfectly legal for me to own.
How much larger is purely a guess. You would need to pattern the gun to see for yourself.
I personally disagree with the idea of trying to get an open choked gun for personal defense. Keep in mind that I am no shotgun expert and am just expressing my personal opinion. First of all I question whether you can get the pattern to open up any significant amount at inside the home distances. In other words, let's say you are talking about my house. The furthest shot you could have would be something like 30-40 feet. Just how much bigger of a pattern could you have in that distance ? IMO, it would be measured in a few inches: not enough to give you any kind of an advantage in hitting the target. So, since the pattern isn't going to be significantly bigger inside a house, why not make the gun shoot nice tight buckshot patterns as far as possible just in case you need to make a longer shot ? Also keep in mind that there is a point of diminishing returns: as the pattern gets bigger, the effectiveness decreases-if you arn't hitting the target with all the pellets, it isn't nearly as effective. By the same token, if you don't hit the target with all the pellets you now have stray pellets going downrange.
Second, hitting something with a full load of buckshot is absolutely devastating. Hitting someone with a couple pellets isn't even in the same ballpark. IMO, the strongest point of the shotgun isn't the speed with which you can hit the target, it is the massive raw power of the shotgun. This power comes from big pellets or slugs all hitting the target in the vitals. It has been my personal experience that I can't hit targets any faster with a shotgun than I can with a carbine or handgun. As has been mentioned in this thread by others, you absolutely have to aim a shotgun to hit something. The pattern isn't big enough to just spray and pray. AND, just like any other weapon, the shot needs to hit the target in the vital organs. The pattern needs to be centered in the center mass of the target. I have taken a couple defensive shotgun classes and cleanly missed a few targets during the classes because I was lax in aiming at the target. So I have proven to myself that you need to aim the shotgun.
And finally: "As you know, short barreled (less than 18") shotguns are illegal under FEDERAL law."
As you mentioned, this has nothing to do with your question, however I have to point out that this statement is absolutely incorrect. Federal law specifically allows shotguns with barrels less than 18". They are specifically allowed by the National Firearms Act of 1934. Short barreled shotguns are an NFA weapon and therefore require a tax stamp. The fact that they require a tax stamp does not in any way shape or form mean that they are illegal. In fact it means just the opposite: they are specifically addressed as being legal. There may be local laws against short barreled shotguns, but under Federal law, they are completely legal. I own a Remington 870 with a Vang Comp 14" barrel. I have a Form 4 signed by ATF as well as my local sheriff saying that it is perfectly legal for me to own.
Dfariswheel
New member
The .45/.410 pistols are legal because they AREN'T short-barreled shotguns.
They're actually pistols with a rifled barrel that can also fire the .410.
The law here is kind of screwy.
If the barrel was smooth and unrifled, it would be classified as a sawed-off shotgun.
They're actually pistols with a rifled barrel that can also fire the .410.
The law here is kind of screwy.
If the barrel was smooth and unrifled, it would be classified as a sawed-off shotgun.
Jack O'Conner
New member
We have a very old Iver Johnson single barrel shotgun on our rack. It's a 16 gauge with full choke. This old gun produces the BEST pattern for buckshot I've ever seen. We use the Remington load featuring plastic granulations to minimize buckshot deformation as round balls fly straighter than dented ones!
Out to about 30 yards, it throws a deadly pattern of 7-9 of the 12 balls into a 10 inch circle every time! In contrast, an improved cylinder in 12 gauge with same brand of buckshot throws less than half its payload into the target. This limited testing shows me that choking is imperative for accurate shooting.
A sawed off shotgun is likely useful where length is an issue. But if I want to hit something right the first time, I'll go for appropriate choking every time. Perhaps the best of both worlds is a very short barrel with appropriate choking.
Jack
Out to about 30 yards, it throws a deadly pattern of 7-9 of the 12 balls into a 10 inch circle every time! In contrast, an improved cylinder in 12 gauge with same brand of buckshot throws less than half its payload into the target. This limited testing shows me that choking is imperative for accurate shooting.
A sawed off shotgun is likely useful where length is an issue. But if I want to hit something right the first time, I'll go for appropriate choking every time. Perhaps the best of both worlds is a very short barrel with appropriate choking.
Jack
"Perhaps the best of both worlds is a very short barrel with appropriate choking."
I agree. That is why I bought the 14" barrel with the Vang Comp system in it. It is supposed to be state of the art for buckshot: BUT, it will not keep a load of buckshot in a 10" ciricle at 30 yards. Twnety yards would be the approx. limit to keep all the pellets on the target (which is bigger than 10").
I agree. That is why I bought the 14" barrel with the Vang Comp system in it. It is supposed to be state of the art for buckshot: BUT, it will not keep a load of buckshot in a 10" ciricle at 30 yards. Twnety yards would be the approx. limit to keep all the pellets on the target (which is bigger than 10").