Standard primer in place of magnum?

Prof Young

New member
So, I'm out of magnum small pistol primers. I'd really like to load some 357 because I have all the components save for magnum primers.

I did some research and near as I can conclude, using a standard primer in place of a magnum may affect performance, but it's not dangerous. Is that an accurate assessment?

Life is good.
Prof Young
 
There is a lot of available data for 357 Magnum with standard primers, Speer for example. But if you are using Winchester 296 or Hodgdon 110 (same powder, different labels) then you should use a magnum primer.

There was a similar thread here on TFL.
 
It’s not dangerous, what powder are you talking about. Not that many actually require using a magnum primer. I’m no expert but in my experience the only two I would bother using a magnum primer with are H110/W296 or HS-6. I use neither in .357 and don’t even stock SPM’s. IMR 4227 might be another one, it’s been a while since I’ve used it but I do remember it leaving some unburnt kernels using regular SPP’s so maybe a SPM would fix that.
 
No issue at all then. The problem with harder to light and slower spherical powders is the possibility of getting a squib that sticks a bullet in the barrel, thereby creating an obstruction that damages the gun (and sometimes the shooter) on the next attempt to fire a round.
 
If you are loading a flake powder like Blue Dot or Unique you'll be fine. H110 may need a hotter primer. You can also use small rifle primers in place of magnums.
 
It's too bad that high-output primers were named "magnum." It lends itself to the common - and incorrect -inference that they are for magnum cartridges (357, 44 Mag, etc.).

Whether or not to use magnum primers is a function of the propellant; not the cartridge name.

In the case of TiteGroup - as Unclenick stated - it is super easily ignited and therefore does not need a magnum primer.

OMG, don’t start me on Titegroup in .357. Bad juju. Just my experience.

Yeah, not to hijack the thread; but I agree. TiteGroup is highly energetic and unforgiving. Even with 36 years of loading experience, using TG in 357 Magnum would make me nervy too.

TG is fantastic stuff for its intended use. And that would be to make modest powered plated or jacketed range fodder for semi-autos. (I have had great luck with it for plated 38 Spl target ammo too.)
 
Yeah, TG works great for 9mm where you can monitor the powder amount by a visual check. But for me in .38sp and .357mag those deep cases make a visual check pretty difficult without pulling each and every case to look in the bottom. Plus I feel a powder check die wouldn’t be 100% with such small charges. But all that said, it does make for some very accurate ammunition very economically with proper monitoring.
 
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I use Titegroup in 357 and will say I am a bit hesitant . Although I think of my self as a pretty safe and diligent reloader when it come to my process . I'm extra careful loading Titegroup in 357 cases . My 357 Titegroup load is 5.6gr powder pushing 158gr platted bullet using standard SP primers and it's one of my most accurate loads for my GP100 .

The problem I have is seeing that little charge at the bottom of the case . There are two ways I load this round . 1) Batch load by throwing 50 charges ( off press ) into individual cases and place those into a loading block . You can then look down inside every case and compare them all to each other to confirm there is powder in the case and they all look to have the same volume of powder . 2) I throw the charge ( off press ) into a 40S&W case to see the charge then dump it in/through my powder through/flare die on the press . This allows me to see the charge in the 40cal case and easily see it's volume consistency in that case first . There's always a third option of weighing every charge .

On a side note , I have use standard "small rifle primers" for hard to ignite powders in 357 loads when in a pinch . I even tried it with HS-6 , they worked but have not compared them in any real subjective way to standard or mag small pistol primers .
 
The .357 Mag does not require magnum primers. Magnum primers are about the powder used, not the cartridge name. Magnum primers burn a bit hotter for a bit longer. Neither of which is readily measurable without a ballistics lab.
I have no idea why Hodgdon says to use 'em for some magnum named cartridges but not others using the same powders. H110 in .357 and .30 Carbine, for example. They say to use magnum primers for .357 but not .30 Carbine handgun loads.
You'll note they do not suggest magnum primers for .44 Mag with H110 in rifle or handgun loads.
You might see a pressure change using magnum primers with a regular load. Not enough to matter though.
Anyway, if you change any one component, you should work up the load again.
 
The reason for the magnum primer in the 357 and not in the 30 Carbine is that your assumption the primer type only matters to the powder type is incorrect. The 357 has more volume than the 30 Carbine, so it takes more primer gas to adequately pressurize the case for sustaining burning with a high deterrent coating powder. So it's both the case volume and the powder type that have to be taken into consideration.

The reason the 44 Magnum isn't given a magnum label primer on Hodgdon's site is they are using the Winchester Large Pistol Primer which Winchester says right on the box is for both standard and magnum loads. Winchester does not make a separate large pistol magnum primer for that reason. They were not, however, able to make that single formulation approach work out in small pistol primers, so they do make separate standard and magnum small pistol primers.
 
Magnum cartridges DO NOT require magnum primers for any reason but the powder used. That IS NOT incorrect.
Max loads of 15 grains of H110 for the Carbine and 16.7 for the .357 isn't much volume difference.
 
You are NOT correct. You have got the cart before the horse.

The issue of the type of powder mattering for the use of magnum primers occurred AFTER the magnum primer concept was developed. Specifically, it occurred in 1989 when CCI changed their magnum priming mix formulation to add metal particles for hotter sparks to better ignite spherical powders with heavy deterrent coatings. But their magnum primer line existed long before they figured out they needed to make that change to improve spherical powder ignition. Not the other way around. I know this is so both because I still have some magnum primers from the '70s and early '80s, before that change was made. The reason we know when that change was made is because we have it from the horse's mouth in this article by Allan Jones, who worked on primer mixes for CCI when it was done.

The whole reason magnum primers were developed originally and before the powder-type ignition issue was addressed is that magnum cases tend to have larger-than-average internal volumes. Smokeless powder that is confined requires a minimum amount of heat and pressure to sustain burning without squibbing out until the heat and pressure from its own combustion gets high enough to provide that. The empty space between grains plus any empty space left over when the charge is less than 100% load density is greater when the case is large than in smaller volume cases. Thus it requires a larger primer gas quantity to bring the pressure up to that reliable burn-sustaining level in those larger case. Magnum primers are made with a larger priming mix charge weight to provide that larger gas volume.

Note that the volume above is the total empty space volume and not the volume of the powder charge unless the load density is 100%. 15 grains of H110 takes up 80% of the total volume available in a 30 Carbine case. 16.7 grains of H110 takes up only 65 percent of the volume of a 357 case. The total space between the grains of the larger charge plus the empty case volume leftover is greater in the typical 357 Magnum load.

There are always exceptions in a given case because of the large range of bullet lengths and seating depths affecting the powder space. This is why you see some loads with a magnum primer that don't really need one, but you will also run into loads without a magnum primer that would probably benefit from one. For example, the 30-06 case is large enough that a lot of common Garand loads don't fill the case well. I've seen several examples of people cutting down group sizes with those loads by going to a magnum primer, even with easy-to-light single-base stick powders. The practical thing for the handloader to do is to try both where both are an option and see what works best.
 
Unclenick's Book

Unclenick I've bugged you about writing a book about all this. It occurs to me that you'd only need to cut and paste your forum responses into a book. The title could be Ask Unclenick!

Thanks for sharing your knowledge.

Life is good
Prof Young
 
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