Stainless steel vs Blued or "Carbon steel"
- Thread starter 357MagFan
- Start date
Police carry blue guns primaily because they are cheaper. With todays finishes the S.S. is'nt the only game in town as far as corrision resistance. And there have been lots of agencies using S.S. guns. S.S. is just that, stainless. Anyone who says it won't rust does'nt know what they are talking about. I prefer my guns in S.S. Some of the older autos with S.S. frames and slides had some galling problems but I have'nt heard anything about this recently.
HighVelocity
New member
IMHO, a good blued steel firearm is a beautiful as it gets. The finish on my blued Colt Python is so deep it looks like you could go swimming in it.
Stainless doesn't have any eye appeal for me.
Stainless doesn't have any eye appeal for me.
FALshootist
New member
For a working gun especially in humid environments SS is the way to go. Blued guns look great and are cool for range use, but some of us live in places where in seems like guns rust just by taking them outside.
Jim Watson
New member
Actually, the chrome moly "blue" steels are a bit stronger than most of the usual stainless alloys. But stainless is strong ENOUGH and is resistant to rust and erosion. Nearly all target rifle barrels are stainless, for example.
Stainless steel costs more from the mill and is more difficult to machine, but good polishing takes a lot of skill and bluing is an added production step. So you see a lot of guns in brushed stainless and dull black CM.
Stainless steel costs more from the mill and is more difficult to machine, but good polishing takes a lot of skill and bluing is an added production step. So you see a lot of guns in brushed stainless and dull black CM.
Depends...
Ruger says their blued steel is stronger than their stainless. (That's from awhile back so I don't know if that statement applies to the stronger stainless alloy developed for their .454 & .480 Super RedHawk).
On the other hand, Beretta says that their stainless slides are 30% stronger than their carbon steel slides.
How can that be?, you ask...
Carbon steel is a very generic term that encompasses a large number of alloys. Furthermore, the forming and heat treating processes that are used to make the part makes a huge difference in the durability of the final product.
And...
Stainless steel is a very generic term that encompasses a large number of alloys. Furthermore, the forming and heat treating processes that are used to make the part makes a huge difference in the durability of the final product.
Got it all figured out now?
Good. One more thing. For the most part, steels in firearms are not made to be anywhere near as hard as they possibly can. It's possible to harden the best Carbon steels to 62RC, while a good stainless steel can get up to around 59 or 60RC. However, a gun barrel is generally only hardened to around 40RC or so. Nothing near the maximum hardness that can be achieve with either family of steels.
The quality and durability of the product is FAR more dependent on the quality of the design and the care with which the factory implements the design that it is on the materials used. The materials are of little consequence, within reason, as long as the design properly accounts for the limitations of the materials.
Pick what you like and buy a quality product.
Ruger says their blued steel is stronger than their stainless. (That's from awhile back so I don't know if that statement applies to the stronger stainless alloy developed for their .454 & .480 Super RedHawk).
On the other hand, Beretta says that their stainless slides are 30% stronger than their carbon steel slides.
How can that be?, you ask...
Carbon steel is a very generic term that encompasses a large number of alloys. Furthermore, the forming and heat treating processes that are used to make the part makes a huge difference in the durability of the final product.
And...
Stainless steel is a very generic term that encompasses a large number of alloys. Furthermore, the forming and heat treating processes that are used to make the part makes a huge difference in the durability of the final product.
Got it all figured out now?
Good. One more thing. For the most part, steels in firearms are not made to be anywhere near as hard as they possibly can. It's possible to harden the best Carbon steels to 62RC, while a good stainless steel can get up to around 59 or 60RC. However, a gun barrel is generally only hardened to around 40RC or so. Nothing near the maximum hardness that can be achieve with either family of steels.
The quality and durability of the product is FAR more dependent on the quality of the design and the care with which the factory implements the design that it is on the materials used. The materials are of little consequence, within reason, as long as the design properly accounts for the limitations of the materials.
Pick what you like and buy a quality product.
OK John ,I'll give you the scoop. Barrels are made from alloy [carbon denotes only carbon as the main alloying element] steel 4140 or 4150, otherwise known as chrome moly steel .Stainless steel barrels are made from 410 or the free machining version 416 , and 17-4 PH. Other parts are made from the same alloys .There may be other alloys used depending on the part. These are heat treatable steels so the choice of the steel and it's heat treatment depend on the use .Complicating it more are the use of forgings, castings, powder metal parts, and the newer MIM parts again depending on the part.So the gun maker has lots of choices to make.
The Body Bagger
New member
and lets not forget that unless heat treated properly a generic 1045 HT will out last a 4140 annealed.
BusGunner007
New member
Made In Merica...
Jim Watson
New member
MIM stands for Metal Injection Molding.
Very finely powdered metal of about any alloy is blended with a plastic binder. The paste is injection molded just like plastic, in a mold about 20% oversize for the finished part. The green molded part is heated to vaporize the binder and fuse the powder solid. It is very refined over the older sintered powder-metal process. It produces parts at or very near net finished size and shape and 98% or better the density of barstock. Parts are heat-treatable, smooth and strong.
MIM parts are used in aircraft and medical equipment, good MIM is good stuff.
Unfortunately, cheap MIM is really cheap stuff. If there is anything wrong with the mix or its solidification process, it is no longer approaching barstock or wrought strength. If somebody figured wrong on the shrinkage, they are all too likely to sell off-spec parts until the expensive mold is paid for.
Now, considering that the blueprint for milling a solid steel 1911 sear was drawn up 95 years ago and that Colt, military contractors, and aftermarket suppliers have experience born of making millions of them, why do you think there are MIM sears and which grade do you think you are getting, aerospace or cookie-cutter?
Very finely powdered metal of about any alloy is blended with a plastic binder. The paste is injection molded just like plastic, in a mold about 20% oversize for the finished part. The green molded part is heated to vaporize the binder and fuse the powder solid. It is very refined over the older sintered powder-metal process. It produces parts at or very near net finished size and shape and 98% or better the density of barstock. Parts are heat-treatable, smooth and strong.
MIM parts are used in aircraft and medical equipment, good MIM is good stuff.
Unfortunately, cheap MIM is really cheap stuff. If there is anything wrong with the mix or its solidification process, it is no longer approaching barstock or wrought strength. If somebody figured wrong on the shrinkage, they are all too likely to sell off-spec parts until the expensive mold is paid for.
Now, considering that the blueprint for milling a solid steel 1911 sear was drawn up 95 years ago and that Colt, military contractors, and aftermarket suppliers have experience born of making millions of them, why do you think there are MIM sears and which grade do you think you are getting, aerospace or cookie-cutter?
mete
It can't be quite THAT simple! Ruger uses at least two separate alloys for the frames of their various revolvers--plus they have multiple sliding friction parts in them which means they must have different alloys in those parts to prevent galling... I suspect that there must be about 6 or 7 alloys in stainless Ruger revolvers alone.
It can't be quite THAT simple!
Ruger uses at least two separate alloys for the frames of their various revolvers--plus they have multiple sliding friction parts in them which means they must have different alloys in those parts to prevent galling... I suspect that there must be about 6 or 7 alloys in stainless Ruger revolvers alone.One of the problem with early stainless guns was indeed, that if you put two identical alloys together in sliding motion, they indeed tended to chemically bond, stick together, gall, etc. The problem is solved by using slightly different alloys.
What makes stainless is the 12-18% chromium content. The chrome in the metal reacts with oxygen in the air, and forms a strong, tightly adhering "passive" layer of Chromium Dioxide, that resists further chemical reactions (rust). The same is true of Aluminum Alloys (aluminum dioxide) and Titanium (titanium dioxide).
High speed tool steels like M42 are commonly used up to Rc 65 in metal cutting applications, but nothing that hard is used on any gun. The hardest metals I know about are some of the S7 or A2 sears used in high quality match grade pistols. They are often used in the mid Rc 50's. Springs are the next hardest, reaching into the low 50's.
Major components of guns see an impact loading, and a competent engineer will shy away from brittle metals. For that reason you really won't see any major components go much out of the low Rc 40's. The one exception I can think of would be the Carpenter Custom 465 used by Ruger in the .454 and .480 Super Redhawks, which is a fairly exotic metal reaching well up into the Rc 50's.
My experience is in springs, stamping, tooling, and heat treating. I've got a variety of guns, both stainless and carbon steel. The concealable handguns are stainless, and for varmint rifles shooting hot loads, I'd lean toward stainless barrels. Other than that, I don't pay much attention one way or the other. I might think differently if I lived in Alaska, or Seattle.
What makes stainless is the 12-18% chromium content. The chrome in the metal reacts with oxygen in the air, and forms a strong, tightly adhering "passive" layer of Chromium Dioxide, that resists further chemical reactions (rust). The same is true of Aluminum Alloys (aluminum dioxide) and Titanium (titanium dioxide).
High speed tool steels like M42 are commonly used up to Rc 65 in metal cutting applications, but nothing that hard is used on any gun. The hardest metals I know about are some of the S7 or A2 sears used in high quality match grade pistols. They are often used in the mid Rc 50's. Springs are the next hardest, reaching into the low 50's.
Major components of guns see an impact loading, and a competent engineer will shy away from brittle metals. For that reason you really won't see any major components go much out of the low Rc 40's. The one exception I can think of would be the Carpenter Custom 465 used by Ruger in the .454 and .480 Super Redhawks, which is a fairly exotic metal reaching well up into the Rc 50's.
My experience is in springs, stamping, tooling, and heat treating. I've got a variety of guns, both stainless and carbon steel. The concealable handguns are stainless, and for varmint rifles shooting hot loads, I'd lean toward stainless barrels. Other than that, I don't pay much attention one way or the other. I might think differently if I lived in Alaska, or Seattle.
mextraveller
New member
Rockwell 70c
According to the Smith and Wesson website, the steel frame/slide on the military version of the 5906 semi-auto 9mm pistol is hardened to 70c on the Rockwell scale. I think they refer to the hardness of the pistol as "incredible" on their site. I believe the steel used is "tactical" black finish on some variety of stainless, maybe melonite. I know this isn't the semi auto forum......just using this as an example of extreme hardened steel.
According to the Smith and Wesson website, the steel frame/slide on the military version of the 5906 semi-auto 9mm pistol is hardened to 70c on the Rockwell scale. I think they refer to the hardness of the pistol as "incredible" on their site. I believe the steel used is "tactical" black finish on some variety of stainless, maybe melonite. I know this isn't the semi auto forum......just using this as an example of extreme hardened steel.