Staggering different loads.

R

Rogue Spear

New member
Does anybody stagger different loads in their magazines? For example, I have a SIG 226 9mm. The mag in my gun, has staggered loads. 1st round is 147gr. Black Talon, 2nd round is 115gr. Cor Bon +P, 3rd is Black Talon and so on. I went to the range and practiced w/out any FTF's. Is this good or bad?
 
115 and 147 would likely give you different point of impact from shot to shot. Why bother? I can sort of see loading a JHP in the chamber and ball in the magazine if the gun won't feed JHPs reliably, but I'd still stick to the same bullet weight...
 
I agree with Oleg. Although I have a variety of special use loads for both my rifle and my pistols. It is a one load per magazine deal, the only exception would be if I were to load tracers, and then I might stagger rounds.
 
I do it. HP's and ball. Each performs very differently depending on what it has to penetrate. If the first round doesn't perform up to par, the next one probably will.

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The Bible is my lawbook. I turn the other cheek when applicable, and spend the rest of my days resisting evil at every front, until I have breathed my last breath.
 
The only problem I see with staggering loads is the litigatious nature of self-defense.

Say you need to use your firearm in a situation, and you kill/injure the perp. I can see the prosecution siting the hollow point bullets as being "evil exploding bullets" while the ball ammo as standard, normal ammo....begging any in attendence to wonder why you NEEDED the evil bullet rather than using the 'tame' stuff. Hmmm.

I personally carry a full mag of JHP.
 
i used to hunt deer with a 10mm long slide AMT pistol. this was early in the advent of the 10mm and the hardball penetrated like a drill bit and the hollowpoints either blew up shallow or plugged up with hair ect. and failed to expand. between myself and a friend that was hunting with an AMT Hardballer we decided to load a hollow point then a ball, hollow point, ball ect. following this theme we practiced until we could get off double taps on a deer's chest in less than 3 seconds. after that we never lost a deer unless we screwed up the shot. recovered hollowpoints did massive lung damage and ball ammo often went straight thru leaving a good blood trail. all this was over when the XTP family of hollowpoints and other controlled expansion hollow points hit the market. i find them a little hard for people targets. plug ups and over penetration is common due to clothing with XTP's. i prefer the XTP for most hunting and the Golden Saber for defense.

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Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what is for lunch.
Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the outcome of the vote.
Let he that hath no sword sell his garment and buy one.--And they said. Lord here are two swords. And he said unto them. That is not enough. Luke 22-36,38
 
Alternating bullet types or using tracers in a gun that isn't full auto is just plain dumb. Period. Why bother? Do I want to waste a shot on a target(animal/human)with a tracer just to know I hit or missed? If you do hit do you want a FMJ tracer to hit vs. a HP? Chances are pretty good that if you hit your target, your target will let you know in some form or another.

If the tracer indicates a miss, what will you do to correct? It's not like you can sweep your automatic fire back on target. With semi auto fire how on earth does a single tracer help? Someone let me know.

As far as different ammo types goes, if you think that you may need a variety, strap on a mag holder with FMJ's in it. You can always drop your current mag and slap in a fresh one.
 
Jesus Christ!!!! NO!!!! If you draw your weapon and there is any more distance between you and your "attacker" than 30-40 feet, MAX, I'm glad I'm not around. The gun is a tool for self defense not a damn game. I'm loading what will kill best. Period!

[This message has been edited by Siggy (edited February 07, 2000).]
 
Bullet type,design or weight are NOT a legal issue. Worry not, that is pure gun rag hype with NO documentation. Just a sounds good theory. If the shooting is legal they don't care of you use hollowpoint bowling balls. If load was an issue the shotgun would be a problem.
 
I'd say it was a bad idea. Even a simple change of nickel cases to brass cases can cause a jam, no to mention bullet wieghts, recoil, velocity all change your point of impact.

Shoot one load and practice with it.

The only exception is when you can find a less expensive load with the SAME point of impact as your "business loads". IE a 115 gr 9mm hp that shoots like 115 gr 9mm ball ammo. This way you can practice shooting without going broke.

"Staggering a magazine" is just bad business. I know a guy who used to carry 2 cylinders of his revolver full of snake shot, and the rest for 'business' well.. his primary concern for carrying a gun was snakes, not bad guys, so the snake shot made sense to him.

Dr.Rob
 
I like the next to last round out to be a 230 grain .45ACP VECTOR and the rest of the magazine filled with 230 grain Golden Sabers. Why? To let me know that there is only one (1) round left and I had better reload. The point of impact is pretty dadgum close to being the same. I would not stagger different bullet weights in the magazine.

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Ne Conjuge Nobiscum
"If there be treachery, let there be jehad!"
 
Hey Jim V.
I think the thing you mentioned regarding a Vector round second to last is the ONLY exeption to the rule. Actually I think it's a good idea! I may just have to look into picking up a box for just the same reason!!

Dr. Rob,
What's this business about going from a nickel to a brass case causing a jamb? Sounds like horsesh*t to me. Years of loading range ammo have I never seen or heard of this problem. As long as you keep your brass clean and tumbled I can't ever see a problem developing. Sounds like someone's feeding you a line.

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Gun control is People Control
 
Oleg (and others) - What I currently do is a JHP in the pipe, AND one more JHP to top the mag off, then followed by ball. Reason being is, even if reliability is your concern, chances are extremely low that a JHP topping the mag will not feed, due to its already being popped all the way up, if that makes sense, but the third round (second in the mag) and following could be a potential feed concern if a wide-mouth JHP and slide velocity is so high as to not give it time to pop up. Having said all that, I think I'm going to switch to 100% ball, just for simplicity and costs sake, at least in my .45, because of the information I've been getting that expansion doesn't occur anyway in JHPs unless conditions are optimal. I used to carry mags with say, 7 JHPs, followed by 3 heavy balls, on the theory that if 7+1 JHPs don't stop your attacker, then you MUST be having a penetration problem. Did I just type "heavy balls" - there's one medical condition I've not had - yet.
 
No I'm not. Case in point: Federal Hydra shocks have the same point of impact and clock the same out of a chrono as UMC ball.. in BOTH my 45's autos( a lightwieght commander and a seecamp-conversion 1991a1) however the SLIDE VELOCITY is HIGHER with the nickel cases. There is LESS friction in a nickel case, and the recoil impulse is noticably different. I'm really pointing out that "limp wristing" a shot might be possible because a stouter recoil produced by a nickel case.(when mixed in with other brass)

I've also noted a similar feeling in my reloads.. i can tell BY FEEL if i have fired a nickel case or not (in the revolver it doesn't matter because the brass isn't going out of the gun) I'm telling you, nickel has LESS resistance coming out of a semi auto.

In a world where tiny incremental changes.. say a half grain of powder, can make a 2 inch group a one inch group.. its quite possible that the difference in friction between a nickel case and abrass case can have a noticable effect on a shooter.

Even variations in case capacity in brass for reloads have NOT produced this same "feel" I get when I fire off a nickel case in my box of reloads. ie federal, remmington, winchester and isreali brass all have slightly different interior case dimensions. One load might be slightly higher pressure than another for this reason, it still is not the same as firing nickel.

I'm simply suggesting that this slight difference can cause a shooter to flinch/limpwrist.

Its a minor thing.. yeah its splitting hairs, but we all do that here from time to time.

Dr.Rob
 
IMHO, when the SHTF your groups are going to open up to the point where the impact difference between JHP and FMJ will be less than the size of your group.

However, that being said, I don't like to carry FMJ rounds for personal defense. JHP rounds have a better chance of staying in the critter or wallboard or car body.

One of my frequent nightmares (along with the dreaded Hundred Pound Triggerpull) was one of my shots punching through the critter and slaying a busload of nuns.

LawDog
 
Dr. Rob, Sounds psychosomatic (sp?). When getting ready to pop someone, you won't give it any thought as to what the recoil is whether or not one of those shiny nickel cases is in the chamber or not. Most guys involved in a shooting don't remember the recoil or even recall the gunshot as being loud.

I would agree that nickel cases hold up longer and look prettier longer but as for felt recoil...

My bro and I spent all day at the range today. I took 450 assorted load 9mm's. These were all handloads ranging from 90gr Sierra's averaging 1340 fps to 115gr Gold Dots at 1102 fps and 124gr Rainier HP at 1074 fps. All were fired from a Taurus PT-111. I explained your theory to my brother and conducted a test. I randomly threw in some nickels amongst my majority of brass and he couldn't tell the difference. He did the same for me and I couldn't tell either.

Maybe this is becasue neither of us are limpwrists or maybe because all my loads were maximun loads. Maybe it's because I keep all my cases clean and I run a patch down the barrel after 4 or 5 clips. I don't know.



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Gun control is People Control
 
Dr Rob is right.

I carry the most accurate JHP load in my 45, but I normally use ball in my carry 9 (but not always).

Most important component of defense ammo is RELIABILITY.
Terminal performance is next.

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"All my ammo is factory ammo"
 
Well the thread started as should I or shouldn't I "stagger the magazine". My answer is NO.

The phenomenon Ive stated may not have ANY effect in a so called "real world" shoot. But the difference in slide velocity COULD make a difference for a less experienced shooter, especially in a high adrenaline situation where FUNCTION must be as close to 100% as is possible.

I'm just telling you I can CALL a shot fired with nickel brass... maybe I'm paying more attention to it (since i'm talking about my reloads) as opposed to shooting at a live target. I pay very close attention to my reloads... i don't want to blow up my guns. The loads where i've noticed this phenomena are a 200 grain truncted cone fmj on top of 9 grains of AA#5, fired out of a 5 inch colt auto, a 200 grain lasercast SWC on 5.5 grains of red dot from 4.25 inch colt auto and 185 grain remmington hp on 9 grains of AA#5 shot from either auto. None of these is a MAX load because I shoot them in my 1917 army revolver as well. And after 300 rounds or so you need to field strip the pistols you've shot the red dot in and wipe them down.

I have already stated that I DON'T notice it when firing these same loads from my 1917 army revolver. But then the brass doesn't eject as a function of operation.

And yes... when shooting in the field at live game my 30-06 doesn't kick at all nor does my 12 guage with a 3 inch shell, nor does my 44 mag and i don't recall the shots being loud etc etc etc. However I've also had my ears rung by firing in a canyon, need a vehicle or other such circumstance.

Pick 1 load to put in your semi auto, do not stagger the magazine. IF you can find a training round (fmj) with the SAME point of impact, then shoot it. But DON'T put both in the same magazine when it counts.

Dr.Rob
 
I think that staggering different rounds is a good idea. For example, in 9mm, I alternate every other round between 147gr Winchester SXT and 124gr Remington Golden Saber.
 
I do it sometimes. I always stagger or carry fmj only in my Makarov. The fmj and jhp have similar recoil and after running a hundred or so rounds of mixed mags, I feel comfortable with the reliability of this load in this pistol.

Since I don't intend to, and won't, blaze away in a crowded area, I want deep penetration and expansion in one mag.

What you should do is eval it yourself. Try it out at the range and if you're comfortable with the reliability and consistancy of the mixed mag in your pistol, make your decision. Don't let people tell you that the world will end if you do/don't.
 
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