I wish they would stop saying that Ruger solved the carrier tilt problem. I watched a video on guns and ammo yesterday and they said," Ruger has solved the carrier tilt problem." No they didn't. After firing about 5000 rounds through my Sr, the buffer tube was worn down to the threads and the cam scared the upper so bad i felt I had no choice but to send it in. After 3 weeks the rifle came back with a new upper, and a claim that the feed ramp was fixed. However the culprit, the bolt carrier was the same. 1100 rounds later and guess what. Carrier tilt, worn upper and buffer tube. Now they want me to send it in again. I wanted to talk to technical support to see what there approach to fixing it would be and he admitted this is a problem that plagues this riffle but claimed it is self limiting. So why would I send it in again? They consider this acceptable. I tried my best to give Ruger a fair shake. I have heard nothing but good things about ruger but this system is a lemon. I am trading it in and spending a little extra money to get a LWRC which I should have done in the first place. I suggest users reserve their opinion concerning whether or not they have carrier tilt until the round count is in the thousands. I know it sucks, I spent the money too, but the fact is this is a poorly designed riffle. Just because I own one doesn't mean I have to defend it. No more rugers for me.
SR556 carrier tilt is inevitable, period.
- Thread starter daf3625
- Start date
Palmetto-Pride
New member
The Piston design AR platform was / is a problem looking for a solution it wasn't / isn't a solution to a problem like so many would have you believe. There is nothing wrong with DI......
There is an aftermarket anti-tilt buffer that people say is effective. It is notched to fit inside the carrier slightly to prevent/reduce tilt but there is a complication in that you no longer can shotgun the rifle on the pivot pin. To disassemble you have to pull both the takedown and pivot pins.
I don't have a link handy but it should turn up in a Google search. The guy's name is Seth, IIRC.
ETA:
Ah, I took pity on you...
http://www.weaponevolution.com/forum/showthread.php?1618-FRS-Anti-Tilt-Buffer
I don't have a link handy but it should turn up in a Google search. The guy's name is Seth, IIRC.
ETA:
Ah, I took pity on you...
http://www.weaponevolution.com/forum/showthread.php?1618-FRS-Anti-Tilt-Buffer
madcratebuilder
New member
Palmetto-Pride said:
Agreed! I like my pistons on Garands, Carbines and M1A's.
No, it's not inevitable, see here, a 5,000 rd Ruger with no tilt.
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=79663
Ruger's SR556 has intermittent guns with tilt, others without. I'm sorry yours had tilt.
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=79663
Ruger's SR556 has intermittent guns with tilt, others without. I'm sorry yours had tilt.
zombieslayer
New member
Man that sucks, trade it for a Mini 14
Sturmgewehre
New member
This is why I will *never* invest in a gas piston AR.
The AR was designed to use direct impingement for its gas system. It works. It works well.
Why it's become fashionable to redesign, hack, edit, modify or otherwise butcher the original design to fix some perceived problem with the direct impingement gas system is beyond me.
If you have a problem with the AR system, don't Jerry rig it with various ill-conceived do-dads, just design a whole new rifle, please.
Take the new B.E.A.R system announced at 2011 SHOT Show.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0JGLsicQsk
Everything it claims to fix with the AR are issues that have come about from other companies jacking with the original AR design and screwing things up.
Enough already. If we put as much effort into designing a totally new rifle using modern technology, materials and thinking as we do into redesigning the AR every other year, we would have one amazing new rifle system.
The SR556 has other problems besides carrier tilt. The whole rail system on it is poorly designed, IMHO.
The AR was designed to use direct impingement for its gas system. It works. It works well.
Why it's become fashionable to redesign, hack, edit, modify or otherwise butcher the original design to fix some perceived problem with the direct impingement gas system is beyond me.
If you have a problem with the AR system, don't Jerry rig it with various ill-conceived do-dads, just design a whole new rifle, please.
Take the new B.E.A.R system announced at 2011 SHOT Show.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0JGLsicQsk
Everything it claims to fix with the AR are issues that have come about from other companies jacking with the original AR design and screwing things up.
Enough already. If we put as much effort into designing a totally new rifle using modern technology, materials and thinking as we do into redesigning the AR every other year, we would have one amazing new rifle system.
The SR556 has other problems besides carrier tilt. The whole rail system on it is poorly designed, IMHO.
Come and take it.
New member
Even direct impingement produces a (albeit very small) carrier tilt.
After 6100 rounds the gun has not mechanically failed.
Ruger says the wear will reach a limit of which afterwards will not result in mechanical failure.
some wear on the upper receiver of which apparently is not even close to mechanical failure. Must have pics to prove the severity of the wear.
worn out buffer tube which can be replaced. Just like a bolt after locking lugs break off, or a gas tube from a direct impingement gun, or an ejector, or a busted stock, or a worn sear or worn trigger group, a barrel that has been overheated one too many times.
All guns have wear. direct gas impingement increases wear of the important parts that keep the gun going. a short stroke increases wear on parts that are not directly involved in the operation of the gun. bolt head locked in place, round firing and ejecting, new round fed into the breech.
Take your pick.
After 6100 rounds the gun has not mechanically failed.
Ruger says the wear will reach a limit of which afterwards will not result in mechanical failure.
some wear on the upper receiver of which apparently is not even close to mechanical failure. Must have pics to prove the severity of the wear.
worn out buffer tube which can be replaced. Just like a bolt after locking lugs break off, or a gas tube from a direct impingement gun, or an ejector, or a busted stock, or a worn sear or worn trigger group, a barrel that has been overheated one too many times.
All guns have wear. direct gas impingement increases wear of the important parts that keep the gun going. a short stroke increases wear on parts that are not directly involved in the operation of the gun. bolt head locked in place, round firing and ejecting, new round fed into the breech.
Take your pick.
Bartholomew Roberts
Moderator
OK, we are in agreement so far.
1. Increases wear as compared to what?
2. Could you expound a bit on that?
Putting aside whether the buffer tube is directly involved in the operation of the gun, I wouldn't be too quick to assume that the buffer tube is the only part affected by carrier tilt. If the bolt carrier group is tilted so that it the rear end of it is impacting the buffer tube and wearing it, then where is the bolt at the other end of that bolt carrier group? Isn't it tilted up inversely to how the bolt carrier is tilted down? If so, then unless the tilt doesn't develop until after the bolt carrier clears the chamber or the rifle has a different barrel extension than a traditional AR15, the top of the bolt is being dragged across the chamber/barrel extension when the carrier tilts. What about the cam pin/cam pin notch in the upper receiver as well?
Sturmgewehre
New member
With a DI rifle, the gas is tapped to the center of the carrier where it pushes away from the breech face by pushing the carrier away from the bolt. This occurs at the center horizontal axis and thus the carrier isn't violently thrown downwards in the rear like it is with a gas piston conversion. It's just as likely to bounce upwards in the rear as it is downwards. It's a neutral action and thus very little wear on a properly built AR occurs on the rear of the carrier or buffer tube. I have an M16 that's had thousands of upon thousands of rounds fired through it and there's no sign of wear on the rear of the carrier or the buffer tube.
With the gas piston conversion, the piston acts not upon the center horizontal axis but instead well above it where the gas key would normally be located. This in turn causes the carrier to tilt on its vertical axis and thus the rear of the carrier is thrust downwards violently.
Come and take it.
New member
your diagram is misleading to a certian point.
The gas enters into the top and is than routed to the center of the bolt.
To say none of the force of the pressure is not lost against the top of the bolt carrier when it makes that turn down would be against our knowledge of physics.
As I said the carrier tilt is so minor it is almost not worth mentioning but yes their is more pressure directed against the top of the bolt carrier than underneath it, due to this downward bend.
The gas enters into the top and is than routed to the center of the bolt.
To say none of the force of the pressure is not lost against the top of the bolt carrier when it makes that turn down would be against our knowledge of physics.
As I said the carrier tilt is so minor it is almost not worth mentioning but yes their is more pressure directed against the top of the bolt carrier than underneath it, due to this downward bend.
Catfishman
New member
This is very informative. I know a few guys who think piston ARs are the ultimate rifle. It's great to hear the other side of the debate.
Please, carry on.
Please, carry on.
Sturmgewehre
New member
The gas passes through the gas key within milliseconds. Once it does and it enters the carrier expansion chamber, any effect the gas passing through the gas key may have had on carrier tilt is instantly negated once the carrier begins to move away from the bolt and the rearward travel begins. The carrier is pushed away from the breech face in a straight line. That's why carrier tilt wasn't even discussed with the AR system until gas piston guns were devised. If it had any effect on the wear of the AR prior to the invention of gas piston uppers, we would have been discussing it decades ago.
Alas, we weren't.
globalsmack
New member
Sucks to hear you have issues. I have a couple POF rifles one with aound 10000 rounds through it and no carrier tilt. At least Ruger is willing to try and help you which says a lot.
I'll take a knights over anything piston but would take a POF or LWRC over any other DI.
I'll take a knights over anything piston but would take a POF or LWRC over any other DI.
sailskidrive
New member
Interesting
I would be curious if anyone has seen a similar issue with the Hk 556MMR or any of the POF uppers.
I would be curious if anyone has seen a similar issue with the Hk 556MMR or any of the POF uppers.
Honestly, the only reason I see for owning a piston operated AR platform is if you plan to suppress it. When suppressing a subsonic .223 or 5.56mm cartridge, reliability of the action cycling properly deserves more attention (namely in a situation where the application of a suppressed rifle is appropriate). Instead of having to tune your rifle or alter the action in a tangible way, you can simply use the adjuster on your forward gas block to adjust the application of gas through the piston system to ensure proper function. Much easier than DI.
That being said, I'd say you're looking at a pretty niche market; ESPECIALLY if you're target market is civillian. I don't have any use for a suppressed AR platform other than recreation, and even then, I'll take and spend the required funds on something else I'll find even more fun and less expensive.
If you want a rifle with a reliable piston system in less than a 7.62x39, go buy yourself an AK74 and a few boxes of 5.45x39. Chances are you'll have fun.
~LT
That being said, I'd say you're looking at a pretty niche market; ESPECIALLY if you're target market is civillian. I don't have any use for a suppressed AR platform other than recreation, and even then, I'll take and spend the required funds on something else I'll find even more fun and less expensive.
If you want a rifle with a reliable piston system in less than a 7.62x39, go buy yourself an AK74 and a few boxes of 5.45x39. Chances are you'll have fun.
~LT