Squashed shoulders

J

Joe-ker

New member
Hey fellas. I did some reloading yesterday and looking over upon seating bullets I noticed a few with squashed shoulders. I realized my lube pad was getting a bit dry(was taking a bit more effort on the press) near the end of my sizing run but I thought I could squeeze by(no pun intended).

It was a mixed batch of brass, LC and Win. The only ones that were affected were the LC with their noticeable annealing marks.

I suppose it's possible that the last rounds( the ones that didn't get enough lube) were all LC, but that seems like a stretch being as the batch consisted of 100 rds and of the twenty that were LC 18 were affected.

So my question is, could it be the LC is annealed that far(soft) to cause it over the Win.?

These rounds I could not get the bolt to lock up in my AR. But without a mag dropping them in one at a time and releasing the bolt they would shoot fine. Just curious on others thoughts.

Pic of the worst ones vs a Win.
 

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Collapsing a shoulder like that generally occurs during bullet seating, not case sizing.

Are you attempting to crimp the case mouth into the cannelure? If so, are your brass trimmed to a consistent length? If so, try backing out the seater die in 1/8 turn increments while advancing the seater plug by a comparable amount to maintain the correct case length and seating depth.

As far as lubrication during sizing goes, I wouldn't try to eek out a few final rounds and risk sticking a case in the sizing die.
 
I agree with hdwhit, the first adjustment when seating a bullet on the die is to prevent crimping. Crimping can be a bad habit, I know, reloaders are consumed with tension, if there was such a thing as tension a reloader could reduce tension when crimping according to Lyman, I know, no one has heard that but Lyman said crimping could reduce bullet hold before most of you reloaders were born.

And I am assuming bullet hold and tension are related terms, problem, I do nt have a gage that measure tensions, all of my tension gages are marked off in pounds.

F. Guffey

Lyman even went to the trouble to explain how crimping could reduce bullet hold.
 
Hdwhit: yes I am applying a light crimp as I am putting these through an AR, right or wrong. To this point I've always done in one step with no issues.

I believe my cases were consistent but certainly could be a reason. I measured them after firing and they are, if that means anything. I'm mean after stretching like that, firing-reforming them, wouldn't they be most likely to be longer? If anything, which they are not.

They are almost at starting loads so they are not compressed.

Im sure you are right about this happening at seating stage. I will have to watch closer next time. First several went fine so I just hammered away LOL. I just found it ironic that it was the LC when they are consistent length.... after the fact anyways.
 
Keep in mind, while all brass is annealed, most mfgs polish the discoloration from that process off.

So you have two very different surface conditions you are dealing with.

The anneal is not going to be as smooth and slidy (new word?) as the rest.

And while I do not disagree with your crimping your 223, years ago I learned to my chagrin, it is better done in a separate step (after crushing some 41 or 44 mag rounds)

I came to the conclusion that I was getting it right most of the time but the times it went a bit South was not worth it.
 
I agree.Your pix are the classic example of what happens when the reloader intuitively screws his seater die in till it contacts the shellholder..

The seater die has a crimp built in.This method applies the max crimp the die is capable of. There is no place for the crimp to go.The bullet is supporting the case mouth.

So,the tremendous linear force collapses the shoulder. It cantilevers out,creating that bulge at the shoulder.

These posts often begin "My AR is JAMMED UP!! The rounds get REALLY STUCK in the chamber and the bolt won't close.

Hint to OP!! It could be you!! You can learn to "mortar" your AR!! Or,not,if you are wise enough to not shoot those.

To really see all this,set up your seater die like you did,tight to the shell holder.

Put a piece of empty brass in the shellholder and cycle the press.Now look at the neck. Yup. That.

Now,back the die out two turns. Put another piece of empty brass in the shellholder.Raise the ram.Screw the die in till you feel it contact the case mouth. Back it of 1/8 or 1/4 turn. Great! Now,get a feeler gauge,or a washer,or anything you can find for a thickness gauge to put in your die box so you can repeat the setup by putting it between the die and shell holder.
Once you have that,reset your seating depth.

We could make a sticky I suppose.Or they could put it in the instructions that come with the dies....:)

If you choose to crimp,I suggest adjusting your seating depth so you crimp into the cannelure. .I also suggest a Lee factory crimp die as a separate op.

I'll avoid the crimping debate. I don't
 
I agree.Your pix are the classic example of what happens when the reloader intuitively screws his seater die in till it contacts the shellholder..
Click to expand...

I have said over and over and over I can not bump/move the shoulder on a case back with a die that dies not have case body support, guess what? again, the seating die does not have case body support and the OP moved the shoulder back and upset the case body below the shoulder/case body juncture.

SO? What does that mean? It means the seating die does not have to hit the shell holder to upset the case/cause a bulge or as I have explained when creating a bellows below the shoulder/case body juncture, again, I created something that looked like an accordion below the shoulder of the case.

Seating only requires a hint of effort to seat a bullet, upsetting the top of the case body is not felt meaning the reloader should determine when the mouth of the case contacts the crimp section in the die. At one time reloaders used nickels, times, quarters and feeler gages at one time reloaders had discipline, when trimming they trimmed all of their cases to the same length.

I made a tool designed to measure case length, it was the fastest and most accurate.

F. Guffey
 
I agree,Mr Guffey,you can crush a case with the die .010 off the shellholder.Or whatever distance you choose.Just like you said.I agree about the non supported case.

My point was a whole lot of the reloaders who run into this problem screw the die in to the shellholder because it seems like a good idea at the time.
They aren't thinking about the crimp function.
They did not read the die instructions.
 
I have never crimped a rifle case but then the only rifle I ever had that might have benefited from it was a Rem 760. I do crimp handgun cases but I also have always seated the bullet to a crimp grove near the top of the bullet. I also have a separate crimp die for one handgun but not the other two, just get the bullet seated right! You know I'd never gave this much though till this forum was started!
 
Thanks for all the replies. As for having my seating die too far in I looked at that before my original post and looked alright but I'm gonna have to double check when I get home.

I think RC20's last line said it best.

And HiBC you are right on, hand loading for an AR will teach you how to mortar! LOL. I cringed at the idea of shooting them- but what the hell I like to live on the edge...... Only one needed a slight tap to back it out. After all crimp loads suck to pull----- ya hear that noise?.......... those guys who are in the anti crimp camp are laughing....
 
Drop your loaded rounds in a case gauge that approximates your chamber,
If the brass fit the case gauge out of sizing die, it should fit a loaded round with no issues,
The bullet simply sticks out the end of the gauge body.

If the loaded round doesn't drop into the gauge, head being between the 'Go-NoGo' indicators ground into the gauge, the shoulder is probably buckled.

This is a very cheap & quick way to let noobies know if they are producing useable rounds that are within acceptable limits for the chamber.

----

Crimping with a seater/crimp combination die REQUIRES a uniform length of brass, trimmer after sizing.
The longer the brass, the harder the crimp,
The shorter the brass, the lighter the crimp.

*IF* I were using a single die in a single press (one at a time) I would buy a power trimmer and trim my brass to a uniform length after sizing.
Since your crimp will depend on the overall case length, I'd buy a full length trimmer that indexes off the case head.

*IF* I were using a 'Turret' tool head press, or progressive, I would buy a powentimmer head that indexed off the shoulder of the case.
Worlds Finest Trimer, Trim It II, etc.
MUCH faster for production volume, the Trim It II not only cuts to length, but champfers & deburrs at the same time.
eBay power drill and and Trim It II and you can trim cases as fast as you can pick them up, no second & third steps champfering & deburring, which will be required for about everything else on the market that's resonable cost for smaller production.

What I personally do with plinking/practice ammo,
Trim to minimum ONCE,
Use a collet type crimping tool in a seperate station (Turret or progressive),
The collet type crimped work differently and will accomdate any reasonable length brass.
This is another die change & step for single die presses, so it's not the fastest way to do things with the usual noobie single press.
Collet dies are available from different sources, usually called 'Factory Crimp Dies'.
 
Seating die is down too far. Have a few .30-06 lying around just like that.
If they'll fit in the chamber(unlikely, but try it) they'll sort themselves out when fired. Otherwise, pull 'em and pitch 'em.
Forget crimping altogether, it's not required. You only require a crimp on hot loads or ammo loaded for a lever action.
 
And from a gunsmith that's had to fix a crap load of damage from 'Mortar' moves,
This ain't combat conditions!

Simply pop the back pin, shotgun the upper, use needle nose pliers between bolt carrier & upper right up in front by the bolt. 99.99 times out of 100 the bolt carrier/bolt will slide back and big the bad round with it...
(Gerber tool, which I'm never without, in the outside pocket of my ammo bag)

The other 0.01% of the time it will leave the round i the chamber, that will require pulling the upper off, bolt carrier out, and using curved needle nose pliers. Twist as you pull.

On still more rare occasions,
The round is really jammed in there, that takes a hydraulic adapter to SAFELY remove.
Remove pins from gas block, turn it sideways a little to block gas port,
Unscrew flash hider, screw on grease gun adapter and pump grease or oil into the barrel.

I usually fill the barrel with motor oil, then use the grease gun & adapter, makes clean up easier.

This is a ZERO DAMAGE way to remove jammed rounds, no damage to barrel, chamber or rifling, but does take a gas block pin punch and adapter for grease gun, both are under $35 and are REAL handy to have if you aren't going to gauge your rounds before trying to chamber them...
 
Hello Jeephammer! The first time I stuck my AR on a case I mistakenly hadn't FL sized, the bolt was stuck partially closed(locked) thus not allowing me to "shotgun" it so I mortared it. In the process I managed to close the dust cover and it would not open. Hoping I could pry carefully on the bolt there. Had to remove snap ring( and obviously lose the little bugger in the process...ugh)

Thanks for describing the hydraulic removal process- I'd never thought of that but if I ever get into a bad situation it's nice to have the option.

I've been meaning to get a go no go gauge..... I guess this will give me the nudge.
 
I would like to add a caution or a warning about knocking a jammed case out with a cleaning rod.

An unfired case has an unfired primer. (Duh!) Hit that primer hard enough and it will ignite. A shooting bud of mine, when he was an Army Officer, he saw, or was aware of enlisted men who got hurt knocking a loaded round out of the chamber of a BAR. They took a cleaning rod and knocked the case out of the chamber. But, that case hit something on the way out, or rather I should say, that primer hit something inside of the loading port, after it was knocked out of the chamber. The primer hit something hard enough to cause the round to ignite. I don't know the specific details of the injuries, but, I am certain someone could have had a cleaning rod through the hand, chest, or brass particles in the eyes.
 
If you control your process,you make 100% good ammo and you don't need to sort out culls.
Put the care in up front.
There is more than one type of bushing case guage.The more common type is meant to check that your shoulder setback,often called "case headspace" (please,nitpickers,I know,headspace is the wrong word). Wilson,Forster,Dillon,Lyman all make these.Good tool to have!It assures you sized the shoulder back to SAAMI spec,and checks your case length.
But they are NOT plunk gauges to check diameters. They have clearance on diameters. They check lengths.
I'm sure someone makes a plunk guage,but I don't know where to buy one.

If I may,another suggestion.The way your loaded ammo looks in the picture,I suspect you do not have or use a tumbler.
I'm less concerned about the color,more concerned with all the micro scratches.
Making your brass look shiny-new before you load is unnecessary. But it does need to be clean.
Range brass is a dirt magnet.The grit will embed in your brass during sizing.Then it becomes teeth that eat your dies and chamber.

Unless I'm wrong,then,pardon me!
 
While on the military range, an UN-qualified PFC decided to use a cleaning rod to dislodge a jam...
He's probably still looking for the chunk of butt I took off him!

Weapon off safe, round jammed in the chamber, loaded mag in place, and pointed at his face...
His excuse? "This is how my daddy does it"

I'm sure NOT a PFC after the write up, but he stayed alive, had both eyes & no extra holes in his head.

The guys I see 'Morter' in civilian life probably shouldn't own anything more dangerous than an Nerf gun...
It's usually the same few things, dirty/corroded ammo, steel case crap from Russia, an excessively filthy rifle or "Home Made" ammo (white box gushow or 'My Buddy' reloads).

With the popularity of ARs, and so much money in the 'Tacti-Cool' market, horrible parts are everywhere, barrels I'd only use as bars over the campfire, bolts & bolt carriers that are only worth scrap steel price, uppers & lowers put together so badly that Stevie Wonder could see the problems.

Hydraulic adapter is simply 1/2"x 28 threads on one end, grease zerk on the other.
Will remove ANYTHING from the barrel, including squibs without damaging the barrel any further.
Last time I saw one in the Brownells catalog it was $13 and came on a key chain.

The only 'Trick' is cocking the gas block sideways to block the gas port while extracting whatever from the bore.
Guys are always amazed when I remove pins and simply rotate the gas block about 3/16" sideways and go to work, don't even have to remove handguards most times (unless someone has one of those silly 'Tactical' rails that completely cover the gas block).

The only other 'Tricky' tools I carry in the ammo bag,
A set of curved needle nose pliers with the longer part of the nose ground off and grip slots filed tonrim size on 5.56/.223 brass, and a taper pin punch for military/Stoner type gas block pins (NOT a flat end punch!).

Seems every time I go to public ranges SOMEONE is broken down, sometimes I help, sometimes it's just good a rapid fire ammo waster isn't making noise & being dangerous, if you know what I mean...
 
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Just to clarify- I used the cleaning rod to back out a fired case so no worries there.

As for mortaring---- I ABSOLUTELY stay clear and remove mag before attempting.

HiBC: yes I do tumble. The Winchester on the right was- the LC's on the left were pretty fresh so I did not clean those.

Please don't take any of my responses as being a Richard.....I appreciate your input, you guys are a wealth of knowledge!
 
yes I am applying a light crimp as I am putting these through an AR, right or wrong.
Click to expand...

This is your problem. INCORRECTLY applying a crimp.

I have done exactly the same thing, and made rounds that look exactly the same as the ones in your pic. The problem is not using a crimp, its crimping when the bullet is NOT in the right place.

Look at your pic, the case mouth is right at the bottom edge of the cannelure on the bullet. With this position of case mouth and cannelure, there is, literally, no place for the crimp to go, and the die's pressure, trying to crimp the case where there is no room to crimp it, "backs up" down the case, and bulges the case shoulder, because that's the first unsupported place on the case in the seater die.

Your seating & crimping adjustment is "off" either because the die moved, or most likely the cases are a few thousandths shorter than the ones you used to adjust your die with.

If you are going to crimp, and don't want to "adjust by feel" for each individual case, then you must trim all your cases to the same, uniform length, and THEN use that length case to adjust your seating die. Otherwise, you WILL get the results you got, with cases too short for the die adjustment you have.


Been there, DONE that. Got the experience.
 
I think your right AMP. I agree my crimp was very close to being off the cannelure. Definitely makes sense. I may just have to give a try without crimping.
 
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