Springfield 67D and Remington 11

fortkevin2

New member
Two shotguns... Did I do well? Pictures posted

Hey guys,

Headed to pick up two shotguns this evening. A Remington model 11 and a Springfield model 67D both of which are chambered in 12 gauge.

What can you tell me about them? Are they good shotguns? Do any of you guys own either? Anything I need to look for when looking them over? What would you say the aprox value for each is? He wants $250 for both of them... Good deal or now?

Thanks for your time.
 
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Around these parts, a shootable 11 will run about $250 up. A JMB design, there's oodles of stuff on them in the archives.

67s are not as sought after. Some are temperamental and parts are hard to find and install.

HTH....
 
If you mean 250.00 for both then it is probably a good deal, depending on condition. Here a nice 67 will sell for 100.00+or- and the model 11 if in good condition will be 200.00 +. Both will probably have fixed chokes and may not work with steel shot.
 
The 11 looks to be in awesome shape for it's age.

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Did I do well?
 
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Interesting gun in those pix.

I'm just a layman not a gun expert, so don't put too much reliance in what I'm saying here, but here's what I think.

I'm not sure your gun should be called a Model 11.

Lets review some history: John Moses Browning patented his autoloading shotgun circa 1898. Fabrique Nationale of Leige, Belgium was granted the rights to manufacture and market Brownings patented shotgun for the European market after about 1902. (We call their gun the A-5.) I'm not sure why FN didn't get the rights to sell the gun in the US too, but they didn't.

Instead, Remington was licensed to manufacture and sell Brownings patented shotgun in the US, but not until 1905. Remington originally called their gun the Remington Autoloading Shotgun, not the Remington Model 11. They made a few minor changes to the gun in 1911 and their gun was ever afterward called the Model 11, which was shorthand, meaning the Model of 1911. I think those changes may have just been cosmetic; a flying duck rollmark on one side of the receiver; a flying pheasant on the other side of the receiver, and MODEL 11 rollmarked into the breechbolt.

I have also read somewhere that sometime between 1902 when FN started European production and 1905 when Remington began production in the US, Fabrique Nationale directly supplied John M. Browning 5000 of the guns they made in Belgium so that he could sell them himself to the US market, which he supposedly did from his Ogden Utah location. I don't know if those 5000 guns were just A-5's they diverted from the European market, or whether they made a special run of unmarked guns for Browning to sell in the US. My guess is that they were unmarked and that FN had agreed to do this as part of the price they paid for obtaining their license to manufacture the gun for the European market. Maybe John Browning originally wanted to sell his shotgun to the US market himself, or at least wanted to do so for long enough to leverage Remington into giving him what he wanted for the rights to make and sell the gun here, which was a percentage of every gun sold.

This brings me back to your particular gun. First off, I don't know if the wood furnishings on your gun are original or not. The wood may be original but refinished but my guess is its all aftermarket. They sure don't look like the wood furnishings on my Remington Model 11 that was manufactured in 1938. The shape is right, but the color is different and there is no checkering on your guns forearm or pistol grip. Again, this may have just been a feature of pre-1911 guns, I don't know, but the stock and forearm don't look worn at all which is hard to believe in a gun of that age with the reputation Model 11's have for cracking stocks and forearms.

There are no duck or pheasant rollmarks on your receiver and there is no MODEL 11 rollmark on your breechbolt.

The suicide safety in front of your trigger is from 1928 or earlier (this was changed in 1928. Guns manufactured after that had button safetys on the side of the receiver behind the trigger) so, it would appear that the receiver portion of your gun and presumably all its other metal parts are at least that old.

However, your receiver looks like its been refinished relatively recently, which complicates things.

Bottom line, there appear to be only four possibilities:

1. The receiver (at least) is either from the 5,000 guns shipped from Leige Belgium to John Browning sometime between 1902-1905, OR
2. The receiver (at least) was manufactured by Remington between 1905-and 1911 as part of a Remington Autoloading shotgun they made in the years before they added rollmarks to receiver and breechbolt and renamed the gun the Model 11.
3. The gun was a Model 11 manufactured sometime between 1911 and 1928 but the rollmarks were ground off both the receiver and the breechbolt before refinishing the gun.
4. There's something I don't know.
 
DG45,
How about another possibility?…

5. It's not been refinished and it's a much newer counterfeit. On second thought, you already have it covered with of your 4th possibility.

Unfortunately, the pics don't show the barrel markings, if there are any.
 
DG45,

My Model 11 (made in 1913) has an original stock that looks just like that, just not in as good condition.

They made several different grades of these guns, and not all of them came with checkering or engraving.

Mine has never been refinished and either never had the markings on the reciever you speak of, or they were worn off.

Fort Kevin,

One easy way to tell is to shoot an email to info@remington.com with the serial number. They'll tell you within a few days exactly what it is if there's any question in your mind.
 
tyr-I'll send you that SN.

This makes me wonder myself. Did they make "Fake" 11's?

I can almost best this was the cheapest grade....A grade. Thanks for the info. I'll have to get you guys the SN and pictures of the barrel.

I appreciate the help.... I'm wondering now what the heck of I have!
 
The main reason I mentioned my disclaimer 4th possibility was because I was pretty sure there WAS something I didn't know.

As others have mentioned, maybe the gun in the pix is a counterfeit, or maybe an early Plain Jane, but what I actually had in mind at the time I made that disclaimer was that I seemed to remember hearing somewhere that for a time, there was a third manufacturer of the Browning patent autoloading shotgun, although my memory may be playing tricks on me about that. If there was a third manufacturer of the Browning patent, I've never seen one of their guns (or at least I never realized thats what it was if I ever saw one). But I do think I heard that Stevens (?) or somebody manufactured a few shotguns built to the Browning patent, and if thats true, the OP's gun could be one of theirs. (I don't know how long gun design patents were good for in those days but if Browning's patent expired somewhere along the way, I guess anyone that wanted to, could have manufactured a clone afterward.)

However, I still think that's a very old receiver on the OP's gun though because of the suicide safety, and that suicide safety alone is a strong argument that this receiver was made before the expiration of the patent.

I think there were only two real mechanical differences between the A-5 that was manufactured by Fabrique Nationale in Belgium, and the Remington Model 11 that was manufactured in the US. The A-5 had a magazine cutoff and a double clawed ejector mechanism. The Remington Model 11 had no magazine cutoff, and had a single claw ejector mechanism.

I see no magazine cutoff on the OP's gun, and if he can verify that there is a single claw ejector, then I think he can at least eliminate Fabrique Nationale as the guns manufacturer.
 
Hmmm that sure interesting.

I'll get more info later... Serial number... Markings etc.

Is thisthing worth the $150 I paid? Its pretty gun!
 
I believe Franchi and Savage may have made guns from this patent after the rights expired. I may be wrong. I use to have a Remington Sportsman model from 1943 or 44. It had a Skeet Barrel and a 3 shot capacity.
 
Looks like you did good to me. The gun may have been refinished but there are enough of them that it is not a collector gun any way. Make sure that it has a 2 and 3/4" chamber and that the recoil friction rings are set right and it should be good to go. It will have a fixed choke and should be used only with lead shot but a good design over all. :)
 
Oh yeah, assuming that your gun is a fully operational and useful shotgun, I'd think its easily worth what you paid for it because its definitely manufactured based on the famous John Moses Browning autoloader design, regardless whether its a Model 11 or an A-5 or a Remington autoloader or a Savage or whatever else it is, or whoever made it.

John M. Browning, who designed many famous guns including the "Ma Deuce" 50 cal. heavy Machine gun that's still used by the US military to this day, is said to have personally considered this autoloading shotgun design to have been his greatest achievement.
 
.410-bore shotgun loadings

Where may I find the various offerings of major manufacturers for the .410 shotgun cartridge? I'd also like to do a bit of loading my own, if I can find .410 brass hulls, new or used. OAL would not be a problem in single-shot, would it? Thanks
 
Update SN is 1534XX

The barrel says:

Union Arms Metallic Co Cartridge Rem Works Illon, NY USA
Browning Patents Oct 9, 1900, Dec 17 1901, Sep 20 1902 Jun 16 1903

It has an RP on the barrel near the receiver

It also has a 10D on the opposite side of the barrel.

Remington Trademark on several places and also the buttpad

It has a single claw extractor.

Does that help any?
 
Sounds like Remington made the metal gun parts for sure; I think you can forget all the other possibilities. However, the information you have supplied differs somewhat from my Model 11, which is serial number 406XXX and was manufactured in 1938, in that mine does not have patent dates on its barrel; it has the patent numbers instead.

Your gun lists 4 patent dates; the last of which was in 1903. Mine lists these four patent numbers: 689,283; 710,094; 730,870; and 812,326. I suspect that these four patent numbers may be the patents that were recorded on the four dates shown on your gun barrel.

I wonder when Remington started putting the patent numbers on this model gun instead of the patent date?

It would be interesting to know if the respondent to this thread above who said his Remington Model 11 was manufactured in 1913 has dates or patent numbers on his barrel.

One other thing that I forgot to mention that you may be interested in is that on the only other gun of this type that I ever saw that I thought may have been manufactured by Remington before 1911, had its serial number on the bottom of the receiver, in front of the loading port. This was different from my 1938 gun, and I think it was different from all the other Model 11's that I know of, which I believe all have their serial number on the side of the receiver. Just for kicks, where is the serial number located on your gun?
 
On the bottom of the receiver in front of the loading port. Is this good or bad? It's a beautiful gun.... Do you think the metal has been reblued and wood redone?
 
DG45

From the US Patent and Trademark Office's web page, your patent numbers were issued:
689,283 in 1901
710,094 in 1902
730,870 in 1903
812,326 in 1906
 
Well, that's VERY interesting Zippy because the last patent date on the OP's gun was in 1903, while there is a 1906 patent incorporated into my gun that was manufactured in 1938. That would seem to date the OP's receiver to sometime between the two patent dates. Would you agree?
 
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