Speer: Caliber doesn't matter

From the linked story:

But it’s not a question of which calibers penetrate or expand the most—its whether they meet penetration thresholds. An attacker hit in the vitals with a 45 Auto is no more incapacitated than one hit in the same spot with a 380 Auto.

While both are adequate - I do not believe that statement for the simple fact of comparative tissue damage and expectable blood loss. I think the 45 Auto provides greater surety of faster and more complete incapacitation.

Gold dots are great either way :)
 
Speer said:
An attacker hit in the vitals with a 45 Auto is no more incapacitated than one hit in the same spot with a 380 Auto.
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Prove it! A 45 expands to 1” while penetrating through vs a 380 expanding to 0.45” and penetrating 8”. Same?:eek::eek:
 
Lol they'll just shout shot placement.

Just use whatever caliber you want, it's a null argument imo. Long as you're not using 22lr, idc

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The only US ammo company Vista doesn't own is Hornday, Winchester, and Barnes/Sierra.

So pretty credible source
Click to expand...

I don't find any big corporation credible just because they happen to have enough money to buy several ammunition companies.

Credibility comes from other sources not because you could afford to buy something (including companies).

An attacker hit in the vitals with a 45 Auto is no more incapacitated than one hit in the same spot with a 380 Auto.
Click to expand...

This is true. It's poorly stated, but it is true. It's ALWAYS BEEN TRUE, and its always been true FOR EVERY BULLET IN EVERY CALIBER.

Any bullet, in any caliber, getting to the vitals ("the off switch" generally heart brain, CNS) shuts the animal or human "off".

Stopped is stopped, and dead is dead and no one is any "deader" or any more stopped than that, no matter what caliber did it.

But, the bullet has to get there in order for the stop to happen. Maybe "modern" bullets make smaller calibers just as good as bigger ones, if I were selling them, I'd sure tell you they were.
 
Four good gunfight rules to abide by in life that are far more important than the caliber of your weapon:

Never assume your assailant is incapacitated no matter how many times they've been shot regardless of the caliber(s),

Never assume there is only one assailant.

Never assume you're going to die after you've been shot no matter how many times or where on your body you've been hit.

And never give up and stop defending when you've under a deadly attack.

But also remember, if it is only your butt on the line, disengaging and getting the heck out of the area is probably going to be your best option.
 
While I'm not disagreeing that shot placement is the single most decisive factor in the outcome of a gunfight, it's obviously in the best interest of a manufacturer from a business perspective to endorse all of their products of being of equal quality/effectiveness.

All things being equal, I still prefer .40 S&W.
 
I don't believe they have all been improved. I believe they have all been made to perform the same in the same tests. Much like no child left behind.

If they had all been improved so much they would stop attackers much better with one good hit, that is not the case.
 
Just remember, the FBI shoot out that bore the 10mm and S&W .40 happened in 1986. Gold Dot version 1 was released in 1991.

We are Gold Dot version 4.

So that's Federal and Speer, the two largest companies producing LE ammo saying FPS doesn't matter and size doesn't matter. Only two things is expansion and penetration, together.
 
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While I don’t necessarily disagree, I think you have to be careful to avoid falling into an appeal to authority. It’s not true just because very prominent names/organizations say as much. It’s true because of the data that supports this (assuming it does).

It’s my understanding that these bullets are designed to perform to a set of standards in terms of at least penetration, with a desire to prevent over penetration. In that case it’s not particularly surprising that they perform similarly.


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That Speer article is a hot mess! They're really saying is shot placement is key, not bullet design. As long as you penetrate deep enough in the right spot, you're GTG! Speer just undid their marketing for all their premium ammo. (I say this as a guy who has .45 ACP GD in my primary carry pistol)

The cartridge box image is of 380/25/32 Auto boxes stacked.

FTA: "The best modern, controlled-expansion bullets pushed at consistent velocities hit those critical depths regardless of the specific cartridge."

vs

FTA: " an expanding 380 Auto bullet will never penetrate as deep as a comparably built 45 Auto bullet fired through the same barriers"

I've seen no evidence of ballistic gel testing that shows reliable .25ACP & .32ACP GD satisfying FBI standards for minimal penetration, even for unexpanded rounds. If they expand, then you can include .380ACP rounds in the failure to reliably meet minimal penetration standards. If they say unexpanded penetration counts, then I guess they're supporting those that say to use FMJ in those calibers, no need for the expensive GD or other premium HP ammo.

Buy the biggest caliber you can shoot accurately and proficiently, then find the best ammo for that caliber. An expanding HP is not the best ammo for anything below .380, and even for .380, only a very small # of options are good there (not GD).
 
Do remember that the 9mm bullet that "FAILED" in the 1986 Miami FBI shootout met or exceeded every single requirement in place at the time.

Long story shortened, end result was the FBI declared the 9mm inadequate, chose the 10mm, found it to be too much, and in the end adopted the .40S&W, and new penetration requirements.

Now we have wonderful new stuff that meets the new requirements and they are using the 9mm again.....:rolleyes:

When (not IF, WHEN) one of the new wonder bullets "fails" to instantly stop a bad guy, because the real world doesn't always play by ballistic gelatin rules, WHEN that happens enough times (or one time in a highly publicized event with multiple officers killed/wounded, THEN they'll write a new set of requirements, and bullet engineers will go back to their drawing boards/CAD systems.

We may have new bullets and even new guns and calibers but the people using them are still running Homo Sapiens v1.0 :rolleyes:
 
"...owned by Vista/Northrup..." Vista Outdoor LLC. A holding company. I notice they don't hold Savage any more.
The 45 Auto is no more instantly fatal or incapacitating than any cartridge. Nothing new about that.
The 1986 Miami FBI shootout was more about a lack of shooting skill than anything else. However, the FBI is not and never has been the arbiter of anything. They're cops and nothing else. They're back to the 9mm because smaller statured agents couldn't shoot the .40 well enough and budgets.
 
"An attacker hit in the vitals with a 45 Auto is no more incapacitated than one hit in the same spot with a 380 Auto" No one will ever convince me of this, and consider it BS. First they assume a hit to the vitals is all that is needed, without even defining "vitals" . Am of belief a 45 caliber hole through the heart has a better chance of being fatal than a 380.
 
Ellifritz_OneShot_Percent.png
 
A point of clarification from the first post.
Speer is presently part of Vista Outdoor.
https://vistaoutdoor.com (stock symbol VSTO)

Northrop Grumman (note the spelling) is presently a totally different company.
https://www.northropgrumman.com (stock symbol NOC)

If they were previously related somehow, they aren't now. Corporate entities buy and sell each other and change configurations over time.
 
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