speed of draw vs. accuracy

R

riddleofsteel

New member
with the trend toward belly bands, fanny packs and tuckable holsters it makes me wonder. i have experimented with all these options and i found myself wondering what is the threshold on how fast a draw should be. then there is the accuracy factor. every moment you use in the draw is added to or i guess you could say could be subtracted from your aiming time.
as you can tell from my signature i believe in staying cool and making shoots count. i have heard the platatudes."you can not miss fast enough to win", "well aimed shoots that come to late are never fired because you've been shot" ect.
my questions are these:
how much have you compromised the speed of your draw for "deep concealment". and how fast can you draw from your CCW setup and make a hit(s) count.
what is your priority(s):
speed of draw, accuracy, deep concealment?


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Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what is for lunch.
Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the outcome of the vote.
Let he that hath no sword sell his garment and buy one. Luke 22-36
They all hold swords, being expert in war: every man hath his sword upon his thigh because of fear in the night. Song of Solomon 3-8
The man that can keep his head and aims carefully when the situation has gone bad and lead is flying usually wins the fight.
 
Accuracy
Effectivenes of round
Speed
conceilment.

Accuracy and speed come with practice.

Conceilment is a matter of adjusting your attire and rig.

Sam...little old feller with two defensive weapons all the time, sometimes three. I count my cane.
 
In Phoenix especially, this is a real issue, and one I've pondered as well.

Our normally warm weather means that any carry other than off body ('daytimer', fanny pack, etc.), ankle holster, Thunderwear or belly band is going to be visible. I use Thunderwear, and the draw-to-shoot is a good 3 to 4 seconds. Too slow if you're actually involved in a case where the other guy is drawing from a strong side IWB.

But, as far as I can tell, that is simply reality. Off body carry worries me, and isn't an option from my perspective. Besides, with Thunderwear or a belly band, at least the firearm is always with you. Ankle carry requires (as I understand it) alteration of your pant legs.

As a practical matter, and in a subtle manner, I do pull the grip of my pistol up where it is more easy to draw in those few instances where I had concern.

It will be interesting to see the other responses.

Regards from AZ
 
Giving credit where it is due, most of the following I learned from Jeff Cooper.

First, you should ballance Accuracy, Power, and Speed equally. One is no more important than the other. Adjust or modify your clothing/liestyle as necessary to carry a powerful enough gun to save you life.

Second, I ran an off duty weapon qualification when I trained for the Sheriff's Dept. the Deputies complained that the time limits were the same as for their duty weapons, yet it was harder to draw from concealment. My answer came from Cooper. If you need your gun to save your life, you need it just as bad and just as quickly off duty (from concealment) as in uniform (from a belt holster). The BGs won't give you extra time to draw because you are carrying concealed.

Finally, the real answer to your initial question regarding speed is to be sufficiently aware of what's going on around you that you see the threat soon enough to either retreat or have your gun in your hand. Of course, that guy Murphy hangs around the scene of gunfights and street crimes doesn't he!

Dave T
PCSD Ret
 
I was once present when Jim Cirillo was asked a very similar question about the relative, or equal, value of Accuracy, Power, and Speed. The way I remember his answer is that he had studied the LOSERS of gunfights and that MOST of the losers lost due to a lack of accuracy, rather than because of insufficient power or slowness. Speed was a distant second with power even further back. Having taken DVC as gospel for many years, this was a new way of looking at the whole dynamic.
He also said that most fights are won or lost before a shot is fired, due to awareness, tactics, and strategy.
My all the time gun is a S&W 442 w/+P in a pocket holster. Like Jeff I live in Phoenix, and the climate dictates carry methods. During cooler weather I will carry a 1911 variant in a Summer Special. I would prefer the full size gun in the waistband holster all the time, but I couldn’t conceal it about half the year. A 38 is not much to depend on, but it beats harsh words and moral superiority.
I don’t think that there is a perfect solution.
To answer your questions:
A) 2.5 seconds strong hand
B) Sufficient concealment, accuracy, speed
 
In the business I was in, (Armored Trucking) I would say that 80% of the fatalities were due in part to complacancy. You went to the same places day in and day out and nothing ever happened. You got sloppy as to doing your surveillance before leaving the safety of the truck. Then when TSHTF you were caught unawares and that was the end of you. It's the same with this situation. You have to be mentally prepared. Where ever you are you have to be paying attention. You never know when something is going to go down or where. You have to develop all of your skills. Speed of presentation. Accuracy. And what mode of concealment gives you the best balance under the conditions that you have to live with. I used to wear a really light weight cotton sports jacket so that I could carry with a belt holster. When it got really hot I would use a side pocket holster. And I always wore my bullet proof vest.(On the job and off!) I put it on like it was underware. I also spent a lot of time practicing my presentation. Went thru a lot of different drills and tried to set up varied scenarios that I felt I might most likely encounter. And even with all of this I was always worried if when the time came would I be ready and would I survive it. I was involved in several gunfights in my career and I managed to survive them. Even against multiple perps. I truly believe that it was my dilligence to a good training regiment that is what saved my life. I almost instinctively went into motion because it was second nature. I didn't have to stop to think. I just acted. So I think that when it's all said and done you need to find the right balace and then Practice with your combination till you'll just do it when the time comes with no hesitation. Just my thoughts on the subject.

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***Torpedo***
It's a good life if you can survive it!
 
I'd love to practice for accuracy, but the local range will NOT allow draw-and-fire practice. Seems too many amateurs get out there and wave the muzzle all over trying to draw. I heard the no-draw rule was put in after someone shot the leg of a person behind him.

I'm thinking of geting a Beamhit (www.beamhit.com) for draw-and-fire practice, but they're not cheap and our washing machine quit last weekend, so household priorities are against me. Oh well.
 
I have tried four or so methods for carrying my Kimber Ultra and probably another four for my Colt Pony. In general, the deeper the concealment, the slower the draw. What Dave T said hits home. If you wear deeper concealment, then you have to be situationally aware to begin to extract your gun before the action ever starts. My best timed concealed draws are with a IWB holster under a vest, followed by a fanncy pack. My other methods of carry will be double or triple the time if things go right (say up to 5-6 seconds), even longer if there is a snag.

As far as priorities, they change on a regular basis between speed and amount of concealment. Accuracy is always tantamount, however.
 
IMHO, accuracy with the FIRST SHOT is most important. When I did some police training, I had one session where every shot was draw and fire. (Not too much of this - you don't want to get folks in the habit of drawing, firing one shot and holstering. That could be bad in the real world!) But that session raised eyebrows because these were guys who had been qualifying on the range, where they fired many shots and no one knew which was the first. 80% missed with that first shot. Every time. I got them to draw fast then hold the shot until they were on target; that worked well. (Yes, I know, but I never heard of any case where that slight hesitation got a cop hurt; I did know of one where the BG got hit squarely.)

Practice accuracy. Speed will come. BTW, I agree with Dave that it is better to anticipate trouble than to be caught unaware. Not always possible, though, and reflexes do get dull at the end of a long mid shift, and after days or months of nothing happening. No matter what the newbies say, it is not possible to remain on top alert all the time.

As to concealment, there are several kinds, not addressed enough here. An off duty cop or detective carrying concealed does not normally need deep concealment. He is legal and has his ID. A legally armed citizen needs something deeper. An illegally armed citizen may want deeper, unless a member of organized crime in some states when nearly open carry is OK. An undercover cop may (depending on the circumstances) need deep cover from which a fast draw is impossible (Ex.: taped to inside of thigh).

Jim
 
I was watching Tales of the Gun last night and they had a special on Colt. I forget the name but one of the people that Colt designed guns for was a promonant western gunner. He was asked what is the most important thing in a shoot out. His answer was surprising because he listed accuarcy and quick draw last.
He said the the most important thing is the ability of the individual to act under pressure.

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"It is easier to get out of jail then it is a morgue"
Live long and defend yourself!
John 3:16
NRA lifer
GOA
GSSF
KABA
 
what brought all this up was a viewing of "The Unforgiven" with the Clintster when Little Bill states that quick draw ment very little in the final estimate compared to taking a little extra time to aim.
the deeper we conceal the more time it takes to draw and the less time we have to aim.
i agree that draw and fire exercises can be dangerous and even forbidden in some range areas. but i would suggest you find a range that allows it or a rural area and practice. if you have access to a timer so much the better. what i did was start drawing and aimming quickly and fireing as fast as i could smoothly. as time went by my speed increased as i practiced more. every time you change guns, holsters, or carry posistions you get to start over again. mind your muscle memory and beware of range habits that can slay you in the field such as firing, then lowering the gun to see if you hit. range vision were all you see is the tunnel in front of you ect.
the deeper you conceal the futher ahead you must think to not get in a fast draw situation. food for thought.

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Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what is for lunch.
Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the outcome of the vote.
Let he that hath no sword sell his garment and buy one. Luke 22-36
They all hold swords, being expert in war: every man hath his sword upon his thigh because of fear in the night. Song of Solomon 3-8
The man that can keep his head and aims carefully when the situation has gone bad and lead is flying usually wins the fight.
 
I shoot a lot of IDPA in CDP and it is easy to conceal, draw, and hit with a little common sense regarding mode of carry and a heck of a lot of practice.

If your mode of carry constitutes a hazard or dangerous condition when you draw then I would suggest you look at other options.
 
Everything is a compromise, and no compromise is perfect. I would rather carry a duty sized weapon strong side with cover garment to the extent possible than ratchet down too much. I do not recall any stressful situations in which I said to myself, 'Gee, I wish I had a smaller gun". There is absolutely no doubt that fanny packs, belt pouches, pocket carry, ankle holsters, etc., exact a substantial penalty in convenience and presentation time--not to mention weapon power and shootability. A timer will tell you exactly how much, and the only thing that will offset that is a very high degree of awareness and tactical thinking. (OK, tactical cheating, if you will.)

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Many of us live where carry is illegal, and must ALWAYS be more discrete than the average cop. In cold weather, the fastened coat slows your access to a belt rig rather badly. If you have 4-5 seconds in which to get your gun out and fire, why don't you just run up and punch the guy out? Man, 4 seconds is plenty of time to charge 20 yds! Since very few confrontations start at more than 20 ft, you will not be likely to have more than 2 seconds before LUCK determines the outcome more than your gear or abilities. I often wished for a smaller gun, so that I could have my hand ON it (in my pocket or "palmed" in some way! That would save me the 1/2-3/4 second of the draw, fumbling, snagging etc. A 2 second concealed belt draw is actually very slow, if we are talking a chest hit at 5 yds and less. Even with my hand outside of my pants pocket, I can beat that time easily. If all you are timing is your draw, dropping a coin can determine your time. It takes 1/2 second for a coin to fall from waist height,3/4 second from shoulder height, and 1 full second if the coin is held as high as you can reach. If you have a friend drop the coin, then your reaction time is included in the time for the coin to fall.No need to go to the range to practice the draw, and primer-powered wax loads are safe and quiet enough for use in the basement or garage. Suspend a tarp or carpet to catch the paraffin slugs. Do 10 dry draws for every wax shot, and you can become quite swift with little expenditure of live ammo. Naturally, you have to pay attention to where the gun is pointing when you dryfire. If you get sloppy, you may well end up shooting your own foot.
 
To me fast draw is having your gun out and ready, perhaps even shooting, before the other guy knows your armed for defense/CCW.

Pocket guns and crossdraw holsters [includeing shoulder holsters] allow you to "go to grip" without upsetting the sheeple...so you can have your draw 1/2 started many times.

Or the Han Solo technique, drawing under cover of a table, works well also. I have used the Han Solo tech a time or two when some suspicious people would enter the fast food place, where one of my buddies used to work the grave yard shift. No one but me knew I had a gun unholstered and ready but me.

Personally I have never found strong side carry to be of much use for concealment. But the crowd feels otherwise.
 
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