Spanish HE Copy
- Thread starter Drm50
- Start date
Bill DeShivs
New member
What's an "HE?" Hand Ejector?
Missing parts on most Spanish copy revolvers are a good thing. The prevent the gun from being shot, which prevents the shooter from getting hurt.
Missing parts on most Spanish copy revolvers are a good thing. The prevent the gun from being shot, which prevents the shooter from getting hurt.
Mike Irwin
Staff
The most important part you need is a large, heavy hammer.
To fix your Spanish copy, lay it on a solid surface and apply the large, heavy hammer repeatedly.
The reality is that there were dozens of Spanish companies making knock-off S&Ws, and quality ranged from decent to downright frightening. More than a few used non heat treated ductile iron frames and even cylinders, meaning they have all of the structural integrity of a rotten banana.
Some of them were so bad that they wouldn't even stand up to black powder loads. I've seen more than one Spanish knockoff destroyed by firing moderate smokeless powder loads.
Worse, most weren't true S&W copies. They looked like S&Ws, but used a weird hybrid mechanism that was more Colt than S&W.
Parts sources are non existent, and that's a good thing.
Don't try to fix it. Make sure that no one can fire it.
To fix your Spanish copy, lay it on a solid surface and apply the large, heavy hammer repeatedly.
The reality is that there were dozens of Spanish companies making knock-off S&Ws, and quality ranged from decent to downright frightening. More than a few used non heat treated ductile iron frames and even cylinders, meaning they have all of the structural integrity of a rotten banana.
Some of them were so bad that they wouldn't even stand up to black powder loads. I've seen more than one Spanish knockoff destroyed by firing moderate smokeless powder loads.
Worse, most weren't true S&W copies. They looked like S&Ws, but used a weird hybrid mechanism that was more Colt than S&W.
Parts sources are non existent, and that's a good thing.
Don't try to fix it. Make sure that no one can fire it.
Magnum Wheel Man
New member
now that these guys got that point accross... 
the Spanish gun industry was of "cottage business" structure... so... many little guys each making their own guns start to finish... so there was no parts standardization... so even if you have one of the best of the Spanish guns, & even if you found a parts gun, from the same maker, it's likely there would require ( at best ) a large amount of fitting work, if the part "could" even interchange... ordering parts from Numeric's for example ( BTW... they may have a part "similar" to what you are looking for ) is difficult, as you almost have to have the part in hand to compare to the original to see if it would work at all... another option would be Gun Broker looking for a "parts gun" however you may need to buy 3-4 to find a part that would be similar enough to be able to fit it...
that doesn't mean that if the gun was passed down in the family & or you were retired & liked to work on mechanical things, had the patience & tools, that it isn't a worth while project to keep from getting bored... but you'd have to look at it like doing crossword puzzles or similar... the gun would be worth next to nothing, as far as resale, when repaired, & you could invest a large amount of time...
... by the time the HE models were being copied, there were fewer "cottages" making them, & fewer imported... so if the gun has family history, it may be "possible" to repair it
unfortunately as the knowledgable previous posters have eluded to... these are most often best used as shadow box art... some of the earier guns were so poorly constructed, that they broke upon intial firing when new... some had barrel bores that were too tight for standard ammo, & raised pressures higher than they could handle... others had barrels so loose, that no accuracy was possible...
I personally find them interesting, but gave up on collecting them, as I require all my collection pieces to be shootable, if I should want to...
the Spanish gun industry was of "cottage business" structure... so... many little guys each making their own guns start to finish... so there was no parts standardization... so even if you have one of the best of the Spanish guns, & even if you found a parts gun, from the same maker, it's likely there would require ( at best ) a large amount of fitting work, if the part "could" even interchange... ordering parts from Numeric's for example ( BTW... they may have a part "similar" to what you are looking for ) is difficult, as you almost have to have the part in hand to compare to the original to see if it would work at all... another option would be Gun Broker looking for a "parts gun" however you may need to buy 3-4 to find a part that would be similar enough to be able to fit it...
that doesn't mean that if the gun was passed down in the family & or you were retired & liked to work on mechanical things, had the patience & tools, that it isn't a worth while project to keep from getting bored... but you'd have to look at it like doing crossword puzzles or similar... the gun would be worth next to nothing, as far as resale, when repaired, & you could invest a large amount of time...
... by the time the HE models were being copied, there were fewer "cottages" making them, & fewer imported... so if the gun has family history, it may be "possible" to repair it
unfortunately as the knowledgable previous posters have eluded to... these are most often best used as shadow box art... some of the earier guns were so poorly constructed, that they broke upon intial firing when new... some had barrel bores that were too tight for standard ammo, & raised pressures higher than they could handle... others had barrels so loose, that no accuracy was possible...
I personally find them interesting, but gave up on collecting them, as I require all my collection pieces to be shootable, if I should want to...
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2ndsojourn
New member
Take it to the next police gun buy-back in your area. Might be good for $50.
Spanish HE
I really was looking for parts,not advice. I'm not a collector of Spanish guns.
One in good shape is bringing $200 at shows, and there is people collecting
them. I put them in same league as H&R and IJ, ect. There is a lot of guns
on market right now that are the same kind of quality. Personally I own only
S&W revolvers , other than them I have a couple dozen other makes, all
top of the line. The thing is I never presume to tell other people what to do
with their belongings.
I really was looking for parts,not advice. I'm not a collector of Spanish guns.
One in good shape is bringing $200 at shows, and there is people collecting
them. I put them in same league as H&R and IJ, ect. There is a lot of guns
on market right now that are the same kind of quality. Personally I own only
S&W revolvers , other than them I have a couple dozen other makes, all
top of the line. The thing is I never presume to tell other people what to do
with their belongings.
Mike Irwin
Staff
"I really was looking for parts,not advice."
Well good luck with that.
Well good luck with that.
Magnum Wheel Man
New member
Well... I thought I offered 2 of the best ways to come up with parts...
as far as the quality matching IJ & H&R... I guess I wouldn't go quite that far ( & I'm familiar, as those brands do make up a good portion of my antique pocket gun collection, along with H&A & S&W ) most Spanish guns are probably about the same over all quality level or just below... the problem is, domestic companies did use an interchangeable parts system... yes, they still required fitting, but the parts dimensions are much closer in tollorances... than the one off builds out of Spain or Belgium, so concequently those domestic built guns are "easier" to fix... BTW... my local retired gunsmith works on lots of my guns, but he won't even touch the little pocket IJ or H&R's or H&A's
Gun Broker has 3 of them for right around $200.00 that all function right now, so I assume thats a "high" going rate ( don't think any had bids )... BTW... I didn't see any parts guns listed
as far as the quality matching IJ & H&R... I guess I wouldn't go quite that far ( & I'm familiar, as those brands do make up a good portion of my antique pocket gun collection, along with H&A & S&W ) most Spanish guns are probably about the same over all quality level or just below... the problem is, domestic companies did use an interchangeable parts system... yes, they still required fitting, but the parts dimensions are much closer in tollorances... than the one off builds out of Spain or Belgium, so concequently those domestic built guns are "easier" to fix... BTW... my local retired gunsmith works on lots of my guns, but he won't even touch the little pocket IJ or H&R's or H&A's
Gun Broker has 3 of them for right around $200.00 that all function right now, so I assume thats a "high" going rate ( don't think any had bids )... BTW... I didn't see any parts guns listed
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Magnum Wheel Man
New member
Hand Ejector... ( as apposed to top break ) alot of these are refered to Model 10 "clones"
Today, S&W has hung the "Military & Police" label on everything from an AR-15 clone to the restroom hand dryer, but from 1899 to the 1980's it meant a K-frame revolver in .38 Special*, possibly the most ubiquitous "cop gun" ever made. That gun (much updated) was later called the Model 10, the name it bears today.
Because the M&P was so well known, the Spanish makers chose to copy it. Many were made for the French during WWI in 8mm Lebel caliber. When that war ended, Spanish makers continued to produce S&W "lookalikes" for the U.S. and Latin American markets. Most were in either .38 Special, or in .32-20, a caliber that could be produced with little change from the 8mm Lebel.
As Mike Irwin says, quality ranged from decent to junk. Most were not even steel, being made from cast iron. That iron was the same metal cook pots were made from and those revolvers gave the gun community the term "pot metal." Unfortunately, some folks, ignorant of the origin of the term, came to believe it means some kind of zinc alloy, which is not the case.
I have heard owners of those guns argue that they are as good as an S&W or Colt and even stronger. Alas, not so, as this thread makes clear. I have seen several that blew up, including one that let go when firing a blank.
*Yes, I know that the revolver was made for our Allies in .38 S&W; technically, that gun was not called the M&P by S&W, but the "38/200" or "K-200". The same gun in .32-20 was also not called the M&P; it was the "32-20 Model Hand Ejector."
Jim
Because the M&P was so well known, the Spanish makers chose to copy it. Many were made for the French during WWI in 8mm Lebel caliber. When that war ended, Spanish makers continued to produce S&W "lookalikes" for the U.S. and Latin American markets. Most were in either .38 Special, or in .32-20, a caliber that could be produced with little change from the 8mm Lebel.
As Mike Irwin says, quality ranged from decent to junk. Most were not even steel, being made from cast iron. That iron was the same metal cook pots were made from and those revolvers gave the gun community the term "pot metal." Unfortunately, some folks, ignorant of the origin of the term, came to believe it means some kind of zinc alloy, which is not the case.
I have heard owners of those guns argue that they are as good as an S&W or Colt and even stronger. Alas, not so, as this thread makes clear. I have seen several that blew up, including one that let go when firing a blank.
*Yes, I know that the revolver was made for our Allies in .38 S&W; technically, that gun was not called the M&P by S&W, but the "38/200" or "K-200". The same gun in .32-20 was also not called the M&P; it was the "32-20 Model Hand Ejector."
Jim
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Bill DeShivs
New member
Many people here care whether someone gets hurt!
Mike Irwin
Staff
"Many people here care whether someone gets hurt!"
Yep. This.
Yep. This.
Mike Irwin
Staff
""Mike Irwin
"I really was looking for parts,not advice."
Well good luck with that.
__________________ "
Should a moderator not be more moderate in his remarks and less snippy and cynical?"
He came asking about a gun that, realistically, is barely a gun given the known quality and safety issues. He didn't indicate any knowledge of the history of these guns. Several people, myself included, gave him honest answers regarding them.
We were being realistic and honest in our assessments both as to their quality and the likelihood of finding parts for them.
My "good luck with that, then," was entirely honest. It will take TONS of luck to find parts for one of these pieces of crap.
The next person who comes here asking about a Spanish S&W copy is going to get the same answer, because I'm going to do everything I can to make sure that they don't load up a questionable chunk of scrap iron with high pressure loads and suddenly find that they have chunky bits flying everywhere.
If that harshes your personal buzz, well, that's life.
Oh, and compared to some of the Spanish guns that were made? IJ's & H&Rs are the equivalent to Korths compared to them.
The problem is, you can't tell the quality just by looking at them.
"I really was looking for parts,not advice."
Well good luck with that.
__________________ "
Should a moderator not be more moderate in his remarks and less snippy and cynical?"
He came asking about a gun that, realistically, is barely a gun given the known quality and safety issues. He didn't indicate any knowledge of the history of these guns. Several people, myself included, gave him honest answers regarding them.
We were being realistic and honest in our assessments both as to their quality and the likelihood of finding parts for them.
My "good luck with that, then," was entirely honest. It will take TONS of luck to find parts for one of these pieces of crap.
The next person who comes here asking about a Spanish S&W copy is going to get the same answer, because I'm going to do everything I can to make sure that they don't load up a questionable chunk of scrap iron with high pressure loads and suddenly find that they have chunky bits flying everywhere.
If that harshes your personal buzz, well, that's life.
Oh, and compared to some of the Spanish guns that were made? IJ's & H&Rs are the equivalent to Korths compared to them.
The problem is, you can't tell the quality just by looking at them.