Spanish 1916 Mauser Boly Action SHORT RIFLE, 7.62X51/ 308,

R

rpseraph

New member
So here is the deal on J&G Sales.
http://www.jgsales.com/mobile/spani...62x51-308,-good-condition,-used.-p-93845.html

My father is Spanish and all of my family is in Spain, so a Spanish rifle appeals to me! A lot of my relatives fought in the Spanish Civil war and would have used this gun. Nostalgia and emotional attachment is one thing, but I also want to be able to shoot the thing occasionally!

- Anyone have one of these?
- The .308 conversion reliable and safe enough to shoot?
- Is the handpicking for $20 generally worth it?

I don't want this for home defense or hunting, it would be a occasional range gun and conversation piece for the Spanish family.
 
I wouldn't shoot .308 Win in a small ring intermediate length Mauser. They were never designed to handle a cartridge that operates at the pressure the .308 Win does. I wouldn't want to risk shooting a rifle, that may or may not suffer a catastrophic failure.

If you reload you can use cast bullet loads or youth reduced loads and be perfectly safe. I have an old Mauser 93 that was originally 7X57 Mauser that I converted to .300 Savage which is safe to operate in that action. The actions are still usable as long as you are willing to stay away from most main stream cartridges.

Spanish Mauser History
 
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I sold several through my shop back in the 90's and kept 4 or 5 for myself(including one in mint condition) just to use for beaters and experimenting.
I don't/won't shoot full power 7.62x51 or .308 in the old Mausers. Starting loads are within the 45000CUP limit of this action and are in the 300 Savage performance window. I had one re-barrelled with a 243 Rem 700 take-off and also use it with starting loads in that 45K neighborhood. It has knocked off several deer using 80-90 grain Nosler BT's.
The most fun I've had with the 1916 is shooting those plastic cased/plastic bullet training loads. Zero recoil and decent accuracy @50 yards on a windless day.
 
I have just sent payment for an antique Spanish Mauser in 7x57. My previous boss has one. It was fun to shoot. 7mm Mauser cartridge doesn't seem as hot as 8mm Mauser, so I would be concerned whether it can handle .308.

BTW, my boss' oviedo is cock-on-close. Possibly all Spanish Mausers are like that. It will feel weird if you are not used to it.

-TL
 
7mm Mauser cartridge doesn't seem as hot as 8mm Mauser
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The European C.I.P spec is actually the same for both, ~56.5K PSI. The US SAMMI Spec is actually higher for 7X57 than 8X57, 51K PSI for the 7mm vs 35K psi for the 8mm.

For comparison, the .308 Winchester has a max pressure of ~60K PSI (CIP) or ~62K PSI (SAMMI)

So for the conversions, every .308 round you fire through one would essentially be a proof load.
 
While the rifle itself might have been used during the Spanish Civil War, it certainly was NOT used in 7.62x51 chambering at that time.

I'll have to check some things, but if memory serves me correctly, the Spanish 7.62 NATO round is dimensionally the same, but LOWER PRESSURE than the NATO standard. Developed for use in their CETME rifle, and not overstressing the older Mausers.

"standard" 7.62dx51/.308 Win is hotter, and DOES stress the old conveted Mausers. While I have never personally seen it, I have heard stories of these guns developing locking lug setback from shooting the standard NATO ammo.

Not all that big a deal in a secondary standard military rifle, (where the military is providing the correct ammo, and doing needed repairs, but not something one wants in a civilian gun where repair and replacement cones out of our pockets.

If you do shoot it with factory .308 (or equivalent), I would expect a shorter than average lifespan (round count), before seeing some kind of issue, possibly one that deadlines the rifle.

Handloads in the 45k psi pressure range should be fine, and do provide usable performance, if not quite full "book" spec for the NATO round.

Good Luck!
 
The Spanish 7.62x51 CETME was a light trick bullet at no higher velocity than NATO. Pressure was low.
But there are signs that the Mauser conversions were done after they had gone from the home grown CETME load to NATO. I think the Mauser conversions were meant to be used with NATO ammo but not very much of it. Issued to border guards and such like who would not be doing much shooting.

NATO or WCF is definitely an overload for a small ring Spanish Mauser.

As said, if you are a handloader, a .308 starting load is close to 7mm pressure and shoots about like a .300 Savage which will accomplish about anything I would want to do with one.
 
Great advice and help so far guys!

Like I said before, it would primarily be a nostalgia/hierloom/fun history type piece. I actually found a picture of my dad marching in the Spanish Army (mandatory military service :) ) with what looks like a Mauser (I'll try to remember so scan it and upload it for you guys) I considered asking my dad whether his in the 60s was in 7mm or 7.62x51... but he isn't into guns and would have NO idea what was 9mm and what was .223 let alone how his Mauser was chambered! Most of his army stories involve pushing WWII surplus American Jeeps down hills to get them started, haha.

I'll see what the budget looks like and consider picking up one of these rifles. If I take it out, I am not a reloader, but I have a lot of friends that are. I will either have them load up a pile of low pressure 308, or do some research and buy some lower pressure 7.62x51.
 
Milsurps seem to be out of control. Condition seems to be irrelevant to some. I lmao when damage is described as "battle scars" nowadays.
U-fix-em parts guns bought at scrap prices by the pound per pallet selling at insane prices...utter madness.
No one wanted Oviedos or Turks...until there was nothing else left, then they suddenly become desirable collectibles.....

As the old Samco inventory tries to be disseminated...
 
"The problem is not with the test, the problem is the variability of the heat treat. What is safe in one rifle is not necessarily safe in another. When you exceed design parameters by 25-30%, you are asking for trouble. I have personally seen severe lug setback in several of these rifles. While my face ain't real pretty, I've grown kind of used to it. Spain did not develop a reduced power cartridge because they were bored."

There was an article on the CETME rifle about maybe ten years ago where is was said the rifle would not hold up using full power 7.62 NATO ammo. The ammo was then loaded down for the gun until modifications could be made to fix the problem. The Mausers them selves were made up as a back up plan until the CETME was brought up to NATO standards.
IIRC, it was Kimber that bought up a bunch of those rifles and converted hem into sporters and sold them. IIRC, Kimber also had them tested by the H.P. White Laboratory to determine safety with .308 Win. Ammo.
I have friends who use those lightweight Spanish Mausers to make sported for their own use, some stay 7x57, some into .257 Robt., I know of one in .243 and one fellow uses them to make various 7MM wildcats and I know he loads hot.
I don't doubt some may be soft and have lug set back but I wonder if they are really as weak as most believe? Granted they don't handle escaping gas well.
I shoot a lot of 7x57 these days but they're loaded hot and used in modern rifles. I'm tempted to buy one of those old rifles and see just what the ruth might be. Why? because I don't think Kimber would have foisted an unsafe rifle on the American public.
Paul B.
 
Pretty sure the Kimbers were made on Swede M96 actions. Still a small ring Mauser, but much better steel than the Spanish rifles.
 
The common problem I saw on the 1916 was bolt lug recess setback resulting in ultimately, the inability to open the bolt after firing. This defect is progressive and may take quite some time to become "terminal".
The way in which the rifles were modified from the 7x57 original often makes re-barreling problematic. In order to set the barrel back sufficiently to get a clean re-chamber, the front ring was also cut back. This results in pre-threaded barrels having about 1.5-2 threads too much shank. I have a pristine 1916 action and a new 6.5x55 barrel that show this perfectly-guess I need a "crush washer" to fill the gap and allow proper headspacing.
 
The problem with receivers of dubious heat treatment doesn't tend to be that they will explode with any given ammo, it's their ability to handle failure. Reading over the 1903 Springfield study of the low serial numbers that were heat treated improperly, it's not that they were having rifles turn into grenades left and right. The problem tends to either be cracks that form and weaken strength over time, or a sudden failure compounded by a case head separation or hot round and the rifle's inability to contain that. If I remember correctly, failure rate on the low number Springfields was something like .1%. When they did blow up, they tended to cause people to lose hands and eyes and stuff.

7X57 is a fine round anyways, I don't think it worth it to go with the .308. We recently had a conversation in our gunsmithing class about this exact Mauser sale and were warned to stay away from the .308 models for our own use and especially for any customers. Not worth the liability.

I'm sure with all of these sold that there will rarely ever be any serious issues, but I'd hate to be that one with so many other options out there.
 
Would suggest the OP get the 7mm 1916 instead of the .308 for all the reasons mentioned above. If you don't handload the light loads your own self, you just don't know for sure.

Also, 7mm Mauser factory ammo is perfectly safe in the 1916 and not a bother to get over the internet. Shoot that with no worries. Good enough for Karamojo Bell to kill 800 elephants with, ought to be good enough for the rest of us to knock over deer and paper targets.

FTR, I own the large ring FR8 that is perfectly safe to use with .308win/7.62NATO. The short mausers sure are fun.
 
- Is the handpicking for $20 generally worth it?
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I read the whole thread and I apologize if I missed it,... Any experience with the special pick option?

The gun shown in the sellers online photo is really beat. I would not keep that as a gift. I would absolutely gamble on the $20 and my inclination would be too call and ask if they had any minty guns for a big up tick in cost.

Great info on the 7mm.
 
I don't see any description of what you get from J&G for "special selection."
I know one surplus distributor says "hand pick (best of 5)" and the shop I hung out while in college was similar. Pay $5 extra and you get the best looking gun off the top of the stack, they did not dig for it.
 
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