Something I noticed about safety/training

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Poodleshooter

New member
I noticed an odd thing about safety & training the other day while shooting a rimfire plate match.
The difference is how different people naturally decide where to point a long gun safely, and how/why they were trained to do so. It seems that some folks who learned their first shooting safety in a hunting/field environment tend to use a default position of holding a rifle or shotgun muzzle nearly straight up, in the sky, or at a very high angle-aka "carbine carry" or a variation of either "shoulder arms" or "port arms". If a shooter isn't paying attention, but keeps the muzzle high, this eliminates the problem of ever sweeping anyone nearby with the muzzle if the shooter turns around, but the tradeoff is that a shot discharged would be straight up in the air. Those trained in a more "tactical" environment with static ranges and berms seem to tend more towards keeping weapons pointed at a "low ready" towards whatever backdrop or berm is deemed safe, or towards the ground. This is judged to be the safest course of action on a static range with a defined berm, but the horizontal level of the long gun results in two very bad outcomes if a shooter violates any of the other rules and has an AD: namely sweeping others with the muzzle when they turn or discharging the weapon into the ground with the possibility of a ricochet for those nearby. Note that ADs into the ground and sweeping others with the muzzle were prominently noted in the match procedural violations, presumably because they are the most common dangerous violations.
I noticed that while the range officers were discomforted by a shooter raising the muzzle to a "high ready", I was far more discomforted by a shooter at low ready turning slightly to hear the RO's directions, and swinging the muzzle in an slight arc. In general while in the field or on a range, I don't care for others around me using any type of low ready carry or other barrel towards the ground/horizontal forms of long gun carry that can result in me being muzzle swept, or an AD going into the ground near me. I'd much rather see the muzzle straight up in the sky if an AD occurs when other shooters are in close proximity (a deer drive, walking a field for rabbits,etc).
So oddly enough, the RO mandated safety practices in some dynamic firing line matches (plate matches, 3 gun,etc) give me the heebie jeebies, while I'm pretty comfortable with the same high muzzles that would give most ROs fits. I never get that same feeling with highpower,bullseye matches, or other "static" shooting events. Obviously you follow the rules of the RO, but it still weirds me out.
Anybody else like that, or am I off base completely?
 
Well, if you can't point it up, and you can't point it down...where do you point the darn thing when help but not in use?
 
No direction is completely, 100% safe. Freakish things happen.
Situationally dependent, up or down is fine. Standing on concrete/asphalt I'd prefer up. Otherwise, don't much care. I'd say I do either 50/50, depending on how I feel like holding the gun and if/when one hold gets tiresome.
 
Never thought about this before. I'm from the hunting side and always carry with the muzzle pointed up. I am around a lot of LEOs I will have to start paying attention to how they carry their long guns. My guess is around here they will tend to be more hunting than tactical minded.
 
I used to shoot a lot of matches with a former Marine. He ALWAYS pointed any weapon straight up and used to get yelled at all the time for it.:rolleyes:
 
It depends on what environment I am in at the time. If at a range, it is always at the backstop. If hunting it depends on if others are with me (if so, where they are located in relation to me), the terrain I am hunting and also what I am carrying for a firearm. I adjust to the situation and environment I am in at the time.
 
I almost always carry muzzle down unless told otherwise by an RO. My feelings are that if a freakish accident happened the feet or legs are a less worse bullet stop then the upper workings. Not to mention I feel as though I have more control overall of te weapon. Plus, it was the way we always carried in the military unless during drill, which was far from often for me.

Other times I may carry muzzle up is if I'm on the 2d floor of my house, or if it for whatever reason is more convenient. An example would be getting two rifles out of the car and the muzzles are away from the door One thing for sure is though, if it has a pistol grip I will almost certainly be carrying muzzle down.. Habit I suppose :rolleyes:
 
While I agree with Maximus that I would rather have a AD going toward my feet my habit is to keep the muzzle straight up. While out shooting I do vary depending on what I am doing, but most of the time it is straight up. I guess the thought is that the odds are a lot less of a bullet coming down and hitting someone then if you keep the muzzle low and having it hit someone's lower parts.

I have to say with some people I will not be picky if they have it up or down, just as long as they stop sweeping me with their dang barrel.

Can I get an "Amen"?

My BIL actually told me a story that while they were in basic there was a guy who would always sweep them and if he wasn't sweeping he had his finger in the trigger guard. He said a couple buddies and he had to teach this other guy so they would poke at his fingers with knives when he put it in the trigger guard. While I am not suggesting that we result to violence about habits it is pretty frustrating when guys can't get it through their thick skulls.
 
Raining outside? I usually have the gun pointing down.

Hunting with friends? I usually have it pointing in front of me, towards the ground, unless I am lucky enough to pull an outside edge, then I point the gun towards the outside, away from the other hunters.

On the range? Always pointed down range. Coming to/from the shooting bench it is usually pointed down.

My biggest gripe about carrying a rifle/shotgun on the shoulder is the gun is usually pointed behind the person, about head level to anyone who comes up behind them.

Situational awareness. Know where the barrel is pointing and make sure you do sweep anyone.

I have never been to a big match, so I do not know the rules. When I was in the military, we carried the M-16 on our shoulder. With a sling, the gun seems to settle into a more upright position.
 
Uncle Buck brought up a good point but one that varies today in the military. With a normal parade sling, the rifle settles nicely upwards. Over in the desert though, we had m4's with one point slings. We would wrap the open end around the barrel if on a fob or other secure location, and essentially used it as a regular parade sling. In this configuration though, it settled much better with the muzzle down and not just because it had an open end. Not sure why but it did. To be honest, the only time in the military I recall carrying muzzle up was with the loop sling on the KD qualification, unless raining.
 
while in the army, multiple times the safety instruction changed about whether to have the muzzle down or up. I was surprised about this, and maybe it just happened to happen in my minuscule area somehow.
 
On the range towards the target line no matter what direction I was facing until the gun was unloaded and encased. In the field up in the air or down at the ground away from the party. I never had a problem trying to figure out which way to hold a gun barrel. Main thing is loaded or unloaded the booger picking finger is always clear of the trigger, no exceptions. Two hardest things to teach a new shooter is not to stick his trigger finger inside the trigger guard or to point the barrel to his weakside while he works on the gun. It seems like the guy who points the gun to the left is always on the right side of the line at the range putting a whole squad of people in danger.
 
I learned to shoot back in the 1950's, and it was always muzzle down. When I was 15, my best friend and hunting partner had his 30-30 go of while he was standing next to me. I was squatting down looking at tracks in the skid road. The bullet hit the dirt next to me, and because it was about 20 degrees outside, I had several layers of heavy clothing on, and I could feel the dirt hitting me thru all those clothes. We both were trained muzzle down. The event scared him more than it did me. We unloaded the guns and went home after that.

Either muzzle up, or muzzle down, but be safe with the safety between your ears. Finger out of the trigger guard till you are ready to fire.
 
Dangerous hunting carries

include "over the shoulder". One dove hunting partner of mine would always walk from the truck across the field to his shooting spot with his shotgun balanced on his shoulder, muzzle to the rear, level to the ground. He walked very fast, and since I couldn't keep up with him, I found myself being swept by his muzzle. I told him how unsafe his carry position was repeatedly, and each time he would pull the stock down enough for about a 45 degree upward angle for his muzzle - for about a dozen steps or so - then I was right back to staring at his muzzle sweeping me. After this happened a couple of times, I just stayed back until he was about 100 yards ahead of me. I felt like at that distance there was a very small likelihood that an AD would hit me.

On an elk hunt, another companion carried his rifle vertically hanging with his sling over the back of his shoulder, but the rifle was in front of him, sweeping his ear and jaw area. I could just see him blowing his own head off!

Strange.:eek:

The dove hunter, about the 3rd year we hunted together, managed to throw his loaded shotgun into the back of his pickup (mad because he missed a pot shot at a dove that landed on the ground as we were slowly driving to a new location), resulting in an AD that blew a hole thru the back window, grazed the steering wheel and took out the drivers side front window. I was sitting on the passenger side when it happened. I wasn't touched, but the blast passed by my left shoulder within 12 inches.:eek: I was deaf for about 15 minutes.

I haven't hunted with that guy since.
 
The concern about muzzle up positions, especially in matches that are not static, is usually because a round over the berm is a bigger deal than a round in the ground. One range I shot at was almost closed down because a round went over. They ended up rebuilding with a baffle system so the only way to get a bullet out would have been to fire it uprange toward the parking lot.

Anyway, like others have said, in the field a muzzle up carry can be safe and prevent the barrel from being stuck in the dirt. Just keep your brain engaged.
 
I agree with others that a discharge into the ground is safer than one into the air (given the ground is dirt, of course, at an indoor range is should always be downrange). Dirt will catch a round with very little chance of a ricochet. Another thing to think about with slings... a lot of instructors recommend carrying on a sling with the muzzle down because it's easier to get to Clint Smith has a pretty good bit on how one hould carry a rifle muzle down on your weak side in order to get the gun up quicker. Also in the sandbox our boys carry is muzzle down cuz that's the most comfortable and easiest given the gear they have ;)
 
facing down is best in my opinion(rather than up), but when you are being trained in LE, military, etc, you're gonna end up doing it the way the trainer does.
 
When I was learning to hunt back in the '50s it was safer to point the guns up at the mountains than down at the rocks. Lots of rocks and hard red clay. My father graduated from Red Hill H.S. He always reminded me he finished 2nd in his class. Out of 12.
 
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